The City and The City: urban fantasy or some other type of fantasy?

Okay, so I am reading The City and The City by China Mieville. It seems to be a mystery in a city that does not exist.

Has anyone read it?

So what I am wondering is, is it urban fantasy? I am not that far into it but I was under the impression that China Mieville wrote urban fantasy. While the setting is certainly urban, there are no werewolves or vampires or fae or any of the other usuall stuff you find in urban fantasy. But there are cell phones and other types of tech.

So . . . is it urban fantasy? And why?

Doesn't it all depend on your definition of urban fantasy?

I haven't read the book, so I can't say for certain, but... From the description you give I'd be tempted to classify it as 'urban fantasy' whether it's got the tropes of the genre or not.

Norse Code by Greg van Eekhout is a book I'd happily call urban fantasy for that it's set primarily in a modern city. It's focused heavily on the Norse pantheon, as the name may suggest, but apart from 'modern(ish) city + magic' I think that's about it for (overused) tropes.

Sorry I can't be much discuss-y use. :( Have you tried asking in urban-fantasy-aimed groups as well?

I guess it does depend on how you define urban fantasy.

i've read some of norse code and i think it is more urban fantasy like than the city and city. in the city and the city there are two cities, two peoples, that coexist in the same space and its a little mind boggling to think of and hard to explain unless you read it. that's the main fantasy element and one that seems to belong in more traditional type fantasy type, you know?

i haven't asked there. maybe i should

Mmm, I think I do. I've certainly seen The City and the City described/discussed as urban fantasy, though, for what little help it is. (That said, Dutch bookstores big enough to have sections of English books routinely put the book under 'general literature' instead of 'fantasy/scifi'.)

What's your definition of urban fantasy? *curious now*

I didn't know that about dutch bookstores.

lol I don't really know. I guess for me it is one of those you know it when you see it things. But definitely the usual - LKH, Jim Butcher's dresden files, Kelley Armstrong, Jeaniene Frost, Kat Richardson, Kim Harrison, Ilona Andrews, Rachel Caine. Simon R. Green's nightside. Patricia Briggs's mercy thompson, and her omega books. Charlaine Harris's sookie books. John Levitt, Mark Del Franco. a lot of Tanya Huff's stuff. A lot of Charles de Lint. War for the Oaks. Lisa Shearin, though I suppose her stuff could also be fantasy. Gossamer Axe by Gael Baudino.

all those works take place in a urban/contemporary setting and a lot have a mystery type plotline and go for the gritty, realistic feel and usually some type of paranormal creatures too.

Can't say I blame you. ^-~

Mmm... so, by your rough definition, the question would turn into "Does The City and the City have a mystery plot and does it have a gritty, realistic feel"? That a fair assessment to make?

I have never thought what urban fantasy is, but having just finished the book it is clear to me why it is placed in general fiction, I am going to reccomend it to some people that I don't think are normally into any type of fantasy.
I feel the question may be are we trying too hard to classify books into ever smaller catagories.

What makes you think that? *curious*

6: Shanra - well it has a mystery plot and does it have a gritty, realistic feel. but somehow it doesn't seem enough, you know? i just don't know

7: jessicariddoch - so you you don't agree with subgeneres? or think subgeneres is too specific?

*nods* I do. I'd guess that the biggest problem here is that the definitions for a particular subgenre are often fairly fluid because they're dependent on the person using them. More often than not it's a person's gut feeling that seems to decide where a book gets placed.

And then there's also the issues of books not being one (sub)genre only and of subgenres sometimes having a certain amount of overlap. (I happily throw together some genres in my tags simply because I lack the capacity to tell them apart properly.)

9: I have to admit that I often have a problem with putting some books into generes, with may books being able to be placed int more than one, that problem will only become greater the smaller the subgeneres that we try to use.
I have to agree with shanra in #10 in that many times it is simply on individual choice, their gut feeling as to which one is chosen.
Have we or have we not had a problem here actually defing what urban fantasy is?
I may be used to small libraries and smaller bookshops but I had not even heard the term.

Jessica notices a link with another thread and waves to shanra. Notes comments on profile about large collection of books, thinks long and hard about the fact I have only managed one bookcase so far and wonders how large a number I will end up with, though this is going to take more than tonight, sigh

So... You're against the use of subgenres then, Jessica? *wants to make sure she understands the post properly*

Also, spoiledfornothing, I came across a post on the classification of The City and The City that I thought might interest you. It's not overly long, but it's interesting.

Here. It talks about whether the book is fantasy or scifi, but I'd say the fact that the question comes up at all might be interesting on its own. ^-^

Shanra, I am not certain that I would say that I am "against" the use of subgeneres, but I am not a fan of them. The problem is that I see is that the narrower the genre given the less of an audience gets exposed to the book, had I heard that (the city and the city) was an urban fanasy I may not have bothered to read it.
However I read it as a science fiction. That means that the post you linked to askes many of the questions that I am asking myself.
I find that most books have a grey line where they could be in different generes. The more that we subdivide the more that we exclude those who do not read those particular divisions.
In the question of is it fanasy or SF, I would have gone for SF. But that is a personal opinion that everyone should be allowed to disagree with
I guess the problem I really have is that I am not that certain of what sungeneres exsist, and those I have heard of, what the definition of them are

Aaah. *nods* Fair enough. That makes more sense to me. ^-^

I don't think you have to worry about bookstores or libraries using subgenres too much. They'll only do so if it's profitable/there's enough demand for it. Commercially, you see subgenre classification in stuff like the cover design and in online stores which reproduce that sense of "books on a row" as best they can. Mostly, it seems to be the consumers talking about subgenres. ^-^

11: jessicariddoch - yeah i can understand that. subgenres are even more confusing when they definition keeps changing.

though i still don't think the city and the city is science fiction. :P not enough science. not much magic, either, but the whole setting and especially the breach part is more fantasy than science fiction to me.

13: Shanra - thanks for the link! i knew the city and the city was up for a hugo award, but i didn't think meant it was science fiction because other fantasy books have won it before.

*ruffles hair* 's because being up for the Hugo doesn't mean it's scifi. ^-^; That's a best scifi/fantasy mix. The question arose when the book got shortlisted for (and then went on to win) the Arthur C Clarke Award, which is a scifi-only award.

What's interesting, to me, is what Miéville himself says about the genre of the book. (Though I'd like to see the full context rather than quotations.)

Yeah, he said it was from a fantasy tradition. IMO, that makes sense. There must be an interview somewhere with the whole thing. Gonna look for it

edited:
an interview: http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/interviews/mievilleinterview.htm
has questions about genre, but not the city and city specifically.

an audio interview here: http://audio.theguardian.tv/audio/kip/books/series/books/1263489082760/4475/gdn....
this one is about the city and city and science fiction in general

Interesting aside - in local library the system told them that Harry turtledove is "alternative histories" and therefore not put in the "sciencefiction and fantasy" section. they also have the city in with general fiction.
where things are placed in large sections the smaller sections can have things redone as General.
comments please