De facto precedent Biden swiped even more classified documents than previously thought
KeskusteluPro and Con
Liity LibraryThingin jäseneksi, niin voit kirjoittaa viestin.
1Kuiperdolin
https://www.livenowfox.com/news/biden-classified-documents-delaware-home-white-h...
No doubt the Demonrat lowlives will hound that senile traitor for it like they harassed great precedent Donald Trump for much less.
Oh wait they're too busy peddling unhinged conspiracy theories.
No doubt the Demonrat lowlives will hound that senile traitor for it like they harassed great precedent Donald Trump for much less.
Oh wait they're too busy peddling unhinged conspiracy theories.
3timspalding
"De facto precedent"?
4lriley
The way I look at it is if there's criminality it should be prosecuted. Just because someone (Biden/Trump) is P-r-e-s-i-d-e-n-t shouldn't put them above the law. Not sure if the thread starter here though thinks his whataboutism should be a free get out of jail card for Donald who absolutely has broken the law. When I say that about the thread starter it's because that seems to be the stand of the GOP and conservatives in general that Donald is someone above the law and should get off scot free no matter what crimes he commits.
5margd
In both cases, deference to the White House needs to be revisited when it comes to handling and tracking of sensitive materials. From engineers talking widgets to consultants with very highest intelligence clearance, procedures are SO much tighter outside of the White House!
6prosfilaes
>1 Kuiperdolin: great precedent Donald Trump
Once again, if a state ignore the crimes of those it agrees with and prosecutes those it doesn't, that's called corruption, and it does in fact corrupt the state, leading in many cases to its eventual downfall.
This will take time to be investigated, and time for those investigations to be revealed. So far Trump has apparently not responded to requests for known documents and sicced his lawyers on the FBI, whereas Biden promised full cooperation.
Once again, if a state ignore the crimes of those it agrees with and prosecutes those it doesn't, that's called corruption, and it does in fact corrupt the state, leading in many cases to its eventual downfall.
This will take time to be investigated, and time for those investigations to be revealed. So far Trump has apparently not responded to requests for known documents and sicced his lawyers on the FBI, whereas Biden promised full cooperation.
7Kuiperdolin
>2 JGL53: It's more ironic that you call me a robot
>3 timspalding: It's Latin for "in fact", as opposed to "de jure"
>6 prosfilaes: by your definition the State has always been corrupt and it's only when your politician is in the box that you cry foul
>3 timspalding: It's Latin for "in fact", as opposed to "de jure"
>6 prosfilaes: by your definition the State has always been corrupt and it's only when your politician is in the box that you cry foul
8prosfilaes
>7 Kuiperdolin: The state is always a little corrupt; that doesn't mean we stop fighting it. I don't think I've ever advocated that we ignore the crimes of a politician because they were "great".
9JGL53
> 7
Are you sure you know the meaning of the word "ironic"? I don't think you do. Your programming sucks.
Are you sure you know the meaning of the word "ironic"? I don't think you do. Your programming sucks.
10margd
Republicans want Biden home visitor logs - but not Trump's
Doina Chiacu | January 15, 2023
The Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee on Sunday demanded visitor logs for President Joe Biden's house in Wilmington, Delaware, after classified documents were found in his office and garage.
"Without a list of individuals who have visited his residence, the American people will never know who had access to these highly sensitive documents" Representative James Comer said in a letter to White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain dated Sunday.
...Comer said he would not seek visitor logs for Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, where more than 100 classified documents - some of them labeled top secret - were found in an FBI search.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republicans-want-biden-home-visitor-logs-not-tr...
_________________________________________________________
As NPR Morning Edition just reminded us,
as president, Trump refused access to visitor logs to his White House, a practice that Pres. Biden reinstated...
Doina Chiacu | January 15, 2023
The Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee on Sunday demanded visitor logs for President Joe Biden's house in Wilmington, Delaware, after classified documents were found in his office and garage.
"Without a list of individuals who have visited his residence, the American people will never know who had access to these highly sensitive documents" Representative James Comer said in a letter to White House Chief of Staff Ron Klain dated Sunday.
...Comer said he would not seek visitor logs for Trump's Mar-a-Lago residence, where more than 100 classified documents - some of them labeled top secret - were found in an FBI search.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republicans-want-biden-home-visitor-logs-not-tr...
_________________________________________________________
As NPR Morning Edition just reminded us,
as president, Trump refused access to visitor logs to his White House, a practice that Pres. Biden reinstated...
11John5918
Does nobody else think there is a qualitative difference between a sitting president who takes documents home to read, even if it is against security protocols, and a former president who has hung on to classified documents even after he has left office, and who then tries to claim that he had somehow declassified the documents even though there is no record of him having done so?
122wonderY
>11 John5918:
Well, yes and no.
There is the question of motive or intent.
But, we assume that there is a safe method to track, account for and handle state secrets. That confidence seems to be misplaced. Now there may be a wide variation in values that fall under the secret - top secret umbrella from just sensitive to critical. From the outside, we have no way to evaluate.
And Biden wasn’t the president when this occurred. And he and his staff did not follow lawful protocols.
And even the president must follow those rules. He/she is most responsible for security of the nation.
Well, yes and no.
There is the question of motive or intent.
But, we assume that there is a safe method to track, account for and handle state secrets. That confidence seems to be misplaced. Now there may be a wide variation in values that fall under the secret - top secret umbrella from just sensitive to critical. From the outside, we have no way to evaluate.
And Biden wasn’t the president when this occurred. And he and his staff did not follow lawful protocols.
And even the president must follow those rules. He/she is most responsible for security of the nation.
13John5918
>12 2wonderY:
Thanks, Ruth. I suppose I have minimum respect for security protocols, as I believe often "security" is either a lucrative self-serving industry in itself, or a means by which governments keep things secret from us the proletariat to avoid embarrassment for themselves rather than for genuine "security of the nation" reasons. I think we probably need more Wikileaks and less "security".
Thanks, Ruth. I suppose I have minimum respect for security protocols, as I believe often "security" is either a lucrative self-serving industry in itself, or a means by which governments keep things secret from us the proletariat to avoid embarrassment for themselves rather than for genuine "security of the nation" reasons. I think we probably need more Wikileaks and less "security".
142wonderY
We can hope that this mishugass will prompt a re-evaluation of classifications that deal more effectively with the questions. If I heard that suggestion from the GOP, I would be shocked.
15margd
I think more of people like Daniel Ellsberg, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, and Reality Winner:
they perceived a problem, right or wrong, took action, and paid the price.
Julian Assange solicited and dumped secrets, e.g., "the Kenyan 2007 elections when a WikiLeak document "swung the election". The leak exposed massive corruption by Daniel Arap Moi, and the Kenyan people sat up and took notice. In the ensuing elections, in which corruption became a major issue, violence swept the country. "1,300 people were eventually killed, and 350,000 were displaced. That was a result of our leak," says Assange. It's a chilling statistic, but then he states: "On the other hand, the Kenyan people had a right to that information and 40,000 children a year die of malaria in Kenya. And many more die of money being pulled out of Kenya, and as a result of the Kenyan shilling being debased."" https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/aug/01/julian-assange-wikileaks-afghanist...
they perceived a problem, right or wrong, took action, and paid the price.
Julian Assange solicited and dumped secrets, e.g., "the Kenyan 2007 elections when a WikiLeak document "swung the election". The leak exposed massive corruption by Daniel Arap Moi, and the Kenyan people sat up and took notice. In the ensuing elections, in which corruption became a major issue, violence swept the country. "1,300 people were eventually killed, and 350,000 were displaced. That was a result of our leak," says Assange. It's a chilling statistic, but then he states: "On the other hand, the Kenyan people had a right to that information and 40,000 children a year die of malaria in Kenya. And many more die of money being pulled out of Kenya, and as a result of the Kenyan shilling being debased."" https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/aug/01/julian-assange-wikileaks-afghanist...
16John5918
>15 margd:
I don't agree with that assessment of the 2007 Kenyan election. Daniel Arap Moi was voted out and stepped down in 2002, and the Kenyan electorate certainly didn't need Wikileaks to tell them about corruption in their government. The 2007 election was certainly rigged and the violence was orchestrated by candidates who were taken to the International Criminal Court but whose cases were dismissed when all the witnesses either died, disappeared or withdrew their testimony (a thirteenth witness died mysteriously just last year, as one of the ICC's former indictees was elected president in the 2022 election). I doubt whether many of the Kenya electorate were even aware of Wikileaks at the time.
But broadly speaking, the more people know about their governments, the better the chance of getting good governance. Since many governments are not very transparent, we need the sort of people that you mention to share information which has little to do with "the security of the nation" and much more to do with exposing the workings of government to those who elect the government and whom said government is supposed to serve.
I don't agree with that assessment of the 2007 Kenyan election. Daniel Arap Moi was voted out and stepped down in 2002, and the Kenyan electorate certainly didn't need Wikileaks to tell them about corruption in their government. The 2007 election was certainly rigged and the violence was orchestrated by candidates who were taken to the International Criminal Court but whose cases were dismissed when all the witnesses either died, disappeared or withdrew their testimony (a thirteenth witness died mysteriously just last year, as one of the ICC's former indictees was elected president in the 2022 election). I doubt whether many of the Kenya electorate were even aware of Wikileaks at the time.
But broadly speaking, the more people know about their governments, the better the chance of getting good governance. Since many governments are not very transparent, we need the sort of people that you mention to share information which has little to do with "the security of the nation" and much more to do with exposing the workings of government to those who elect the government and whom said government is supposed to serve.
17John5918
Biden and Pence documents reveal US crisis of ‘overclassification’, expert says (Guardian)
Donald Trump was caught with classified documents and Democrats were outraged. Joe Biden was caught with classified documents and Republicans were outraged. Mike Pence was caught with classified documents and it became clear that there might be a bigger problem here. America has a crisis of “overclassification”, critics say. Since the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks, Washington has been overzealous in defining government secrets. Politicians and officials can too easily fall foul of this secrecy-industrial complex but the biggest losers are the American people denied democratic accountability...
