Diversity

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Diversity

1A_B
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 22, 2021, 2:22 am

Do you think there's enough diversity in respects to race, culture and other groups (ie LGBTQ, religious groups) in the LOA? Does LOA need do more? If so, what is being overlooked? Which writers from representative groups and communities and cultures etc do you want on your shelves?

2elenchus
syyskuu 22, 2021, 12:35 pm

Indigenous writers. I acknowledge I'm primarily interested in indigenous traditions, updated or not, but indigenous authors writing within mainstream U.S. traditions would be of value, too.

3jroger1
syyskuu 22, 2021, 12:43 pm

>2 elenchus:
Few Native Americans had a written language until Sequoyah created one for the Cherokees in the 1800s, so there won’t be many early first-hand accounts. There have been some good historical accounts, though, from Angie Debo, etc.

4elenchus
syyskuu 22, 2021, 1:00 pm

>3 jroger1:

That's a great point about the canon's inherent bias toward the written word (logocentrism is perfectly understandable within the Western tradition but has no less serious consequences for that). A key area of overlap is that of the insights of ecology, itself a meaningful part of the U.S. canon and yet deriving important principles and values from indigenous science, an influential knowledge base not having been committed to paper.

5CurrerBell
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 22, 2021, 9:16 pm

Asian American? Problem there might be that, although there are quite a number of such writers, there may not be any one single stand-out sufficient for an entire volume; and attempting an anthology might be prohibitively costly because Asian American literature is largely so recent that most will still be under copyright.

ETA: In fact, that may be a problem LOA would run into with diversity in general. Other than some African-American, most is going to be of sufficiently recent vintage as to cause copyright problems. Granted, not all, but most – and "most" is sufficient to cause problems when you need to come up with ~600+ pages that are largely in the public domain.

6Truett
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 23, 2021, 6:17 am

CurrerBell: Pretty sure your argument moot before you began:

Regarding Asian American writers:

https://www.amazon.com/Maxine-Hong-Kingston-Tripmaster-Writings/dp/1598537245
(And Amy Tan, and others will likely follow)

----
As for African American:

https://www.loa.org/books/643-kindred-fledgling-collected-stories
(LOA is lining up other Butler books)

https://www.loa.org/books/595-the-street-the-narrows

https://www.loa.org/books/505-complete-fiction-collected-essays-three-volumes

https://www.loa.org/books/350-harlem-renaissance-novels-boxed-set

https://www.loa.org/books/503-richard-wright-the-library-of-america-unexpurgated...

https://www.loa.org/books/545-the-collected-works-of-zora-neale-hurston-two-volu...

https://www.loa.org/books/572-collected-novels-poems

https://www.loa.org/books/237-the-essential-gwendolyn-brooks

---------

Pretty sure I've missed some, but...you get the idea, right?

As for Native American writers:
Louise Erdrich is definitely a great start. And I'm still not sure if Canadian writers "qualify" as "American" enough for the LOA (they should; as well as those living in Central and South, since we al share the same continent), but Thomas King is a brilliant writer; and should be included for, at the very least, the classic novel, GREEN GRASS, RUNNING WATER.

7CurrerBell
syyskuu 23, 2021, 12:58 pm

>6 Truett: As I noted, "other than some African-American." LoA does have a good number of African-American, but African-American literature has been with us since the beginning and it's just been a job of recognizing canonicity.

With Asian-American, my point is that much of it is just too recent. These are by and large living writers, and rights management will be extremely difficult.

8jroger1
syyskuu 23, 2021, 1:13 pm

>6 Truett: “ I'm still not sure if Canadian writers "qualify" as "American" enough for the LOA (they should; as well as those living in Central and South, since we al share the same continent).”

From the LOA website: “Library of America, a nonprofit organization, champions *our nation’s* cultural heritage by publishing America’s greatest writing in authoritative new editions and providing resources for readers to explore this rich, living legacy.”

Clearly the LOA mission is limited to U.S. literature. Donors and readers alike expect that.

9bsc20
syyskuu 23, 2021, 8:14 pm

For all we know, LOA is feverishly working on this right now and just don't have a lot to announce yet beyond the Kingston volume.

The Criterion Collection, a rough for-profit analogue to LOA (at least in my collecting world) is struggling with this issue, and this article in the New York Times opened eyes:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/08/20/movies/criterion-collection-afric...

It is an article that could just as easily have been written about LOA in 2020. And Criterion has responded with 10 films by black directors this year alone and many more available on its streaming channel.

The problem with canons of long standing is that one can go through a lit major and much of life and realize one day that only about 15 percent of one's reading in literature has been written by women (raises hand). Wasn't assigned. Hasn't made it to LOA, Everyman's, Criterion, etc. I'm working on my own imbalance, but for LOA, it is a challenge. I would suggest that LOA more openly acknowledge the problem, get a special advisory board together with clout in key literary circles to address the issue, and get to work on those rights negotiations. There is reason for optimism. Since the beginning of the MeToo era, (early 2017?) they have nearly doubled the number of volumes authored by women alone to 60 out of 359 announced titles, or 17 percent, a rapid increase in only a few years. That isn't entirely correct because women do have contributions to various anthology volumes from Fantastic Tales to the Civil War, but even so, that would probably push the percentage to around 20 percent or so and they would rarely if ever be the majority voice in those volumes.

Much more problematic is the representation issue for authors of color. Roughly 33 volumes out of 359 is less than 10 percent, with the anthology caveat noted as above. Of those, only one is from an Asian American author (the announced Kingston) and none by Latinx (the largest and fastest-growing minority) and Native Americans (who have been here the longest).

AP English courses are already hitting this one. The young folks are reading Julia Alvarez, Cristine Garcia, Erika L. Sanchez, Rudolfo Anaya, Luis Valdez, Sandra Cisneros, Junot Diaz, Amy Tan, Carlos Bulosan, Celeste Ng, Anita Desai, Jhumpa Lahiri, Bharati Mukherjee, Chang-Rae Lee, Ha Jin, Chimimanda Ngozi Adichie, Edwidge Danticat, Jamaica Kincaid. And of course there are many more African American writers to go: Alice Walker, John Edgar Wideman, Gayl Jones, James Alan McPherson, Edward P. Jones, Ishmael Reed, Paule Marshall, Langston Hughes, Ralph Ellison, and yes, Toni Morrison. And Louise Erdrich, James Welch, Sherman Alexie, N. Scott Momaday, Leslie Marmon Silko, and many other Native American writers beckon as well.

This is just off the top of my head--I'm sure we could all come up with more significant writers LOA should consider. If the organization wants to truly expand its audience (or even meet it) this should be a priority of the first order. Currer Bell is right--many of these writers are in mid-career and all would be in copyright, so it won't be easy.

10jroger1
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 23, 2021, 9:55 pm

We are the only country that is so hung up on classifying people. Most Hispanics/Latinx, at least in my part of the country (the American southwest), don’t like to be called “persons of color.” They consider themselves to be white.

Antonio Banderas tells the story of entering this country once and checking the “white” box on the customs form. The customs official told him he was wrong and that he should check “Hispanic” instead (he’s from Spain). He obediently changed it and laughs off the incident, but why do we even ask the question?

LOA should publish the best and most significant writings regardless of the author’s ethnicity or gender.

11Pablum
syyskuu 24, 2021, 11:20 am

I'm curious if there could be a volume with writings by Alaskan indigenous people? When talking about Native Americans people tend to overlook them, but they are a distinct group. Same with Hawaiians.

As far as LGBTQ diversity, this is sorely lacking. And I hope LOA does something soon to address this gap. I've floated ideas for lesbian pulp novels: https://www.librarything.com/topic/331584 and Tales of the City: https://www.librarything.com/topic/307001

12gatsby61
syyskuu 25, 2021, 2:43 pm

I’ll always praise the efforts to find competency first, have no obsession of checkboxing for the sake of optics.

13fayevert
marraskuu 3, 2022, 10:55 pm

>6 Truett: one volume by one Asian-American author does not equal "problem solved". "Asia" extends from Turkey to India to Siberia to Indonesia. CurrerBell's point is not moot by any means.

14fayevert
marraskuu 3, 2022, 11:14 pm


>elenchus
>3 jroger1:

If we can have anthologies of speeches, we can have anthologies transcribing oral traditions/histories from indigenous people. I'm confident there are many such texts and recordings sitting in university libraries across the country. In fact, the University of California published a literature anthology more than 20 years ago with dozens of indigenous "poetry and prose" pieces. Books by white historians aren't the solution.

There is a currently out of print book originally published in 1916 by Yurok woman Lucy Thompson that might be eligible. I'm sure others can be found.

15fayevert
marraskuu 3, 2022, 11:43 pm

>7 CurrerBell: there is some pre-WWI English-language Asian American lit, e.g. Sui Sin Far and Yung Wing. Considering that Asians were denied citizenship until 1965, and that Alexis de Tocqueville is included in the LOA, Yone Noguchi could be included as a 19th century Asian American author.

We *know* there were newspapers, etc being published in America in Asian languages by Asian journalists in the 19th and 20th centuries. It seems likely that there were works of poetry and literature being published in the same communities. Seems worth looking in to.

16Podras.
Muokkaaja: marraskuu 4, 2022, 3:59 pm

>14 fayevert: LOA does have some Native American writings in its main series.
  • American Poetry: The Nineteenth Century, Volume 2 (main series #67) has a subsection titled 19TH-CENTURY VERSIONS OF AMERICAN INDIAN POETRY with many entries presumably documented from oral tradition.
  • American Speeches II: Political Oratory from the Civil War to Bill Clinton (main series #167) has Chief Joseph's famous surrender speech in English. Chief Joseph didn't speak English.
  • Plymouth Colony (main series #351) has some writings by English educated Native American authors.

  • I have a vague recollection (not to be relied on) that David once said that LOA was considering an edition of Native American writings/speeches/oral tradition, etc. There is certainly scope for an edition of something of the sort.

    17Truett
    marraskuu 30, 2022, 11:13 pm

    CurrerBell: Catching up, but...others (not just me) have already proven your original points --regarding African American literature, and important works that could be included, fallacious. Same for Asian American -- like me, you may have made the mistake of thinking of specific Asian countries (Japan, China, etc.) when, of course, the Continent of Asian includes Inidan writers, etc.

    18Truett
    Muokkaaja: marraskuu 30, 2022, 11:32 pm

    JRoger1: Message read and...understood -- to mean _you_ believe (unless you somehow are "connected" (via tinhat?) to all the donors _and_ readers of the LOA) that everyone wants ONLY writers from with the United States of America included in the LOA. Put aside any Nationalistic (or other) tendencies for a moment and imagine it: The Library of the Americas (which would include ALL writers who have lived on the _entire_ continent)! Borges! Atwood! Vargas Illsoa and Marquez! If anyone wouldn't be proud to have those names included in the "canon" of _American_ literature, they don't deserve to have their library cards reactivated.

    Regarding another of your posts (recopied here in its entirety):
    "We are the only country that is so hung up on classifying people. Most Hispanics/Latinx, at least in my part of the country (the American southwest), don’t like to be called “persons of color.” They consider themselves to be white.

    Antonio Banderas tells the story of entering this country once and checking the “white” box on the customs form. The customs official told him he was wrong and that he should check “Hispanic” instead (he’s from Spain). He obediently changed it and laughs off the incident, but why do we even ask the question?

    LOA should publish the best and most significant writings regardless of the author’s ethnicity or gender."

    JRoger1: You CLEARLY have lived a life of entitled, White, ignorance.

    I've lived a peripatetic life, largely because my father was a career military man. When he retired, he retired in Corpus Christi, Texas, which -- believe it or not -- is part of the U.S.A. In that (at the time) small, sleepy, fishing village (now a Spring Break destination, and an over-developed -- by the oil industry and others -- nightmare), I (a Caucasian) was a minority. I spent many a day, dodging small gangs of Chicanos because I didn't want to get into fights (and was, at the time, too small to do so). I also spent many a day (and night) as I grew older (teens; early adulthood) working beside and partying with Latinos and Latinas (in construction, linen delivery, service stations, grocery stores, etc; in nightclubs, at restaurants and on the beach). The music, culture and slang I absorbed and observed was full-on Tex-Mex, Chicano, Lainto/Latina/LatinX (or whatever term is PC, nowadays). And my friends from Robert, Norma, Orlando, Lupe, etc.) were ALL very proud, and very outspoken about their Latin roots. They DIDN'T want to be seen as white. Worse: they were often treated as inferior by "The Man" in charge (96 percent of the time, a White Guy). They not only embraced their culture and heritage and roots, they defended it and championed it.

    "We" are country born in a melting pot -- NOT in Wonder Bread factory.

    19Truett
    marraskuu 30, 2022, 11:33 pm

    Useat käyttäjät ovat merkinneet tämän viestin asiattomaksi eikä sitä enää näytetä. (näytä)
    gatsby: You and JRoger1 need to start a club -- assuming you don't already belong to one as members.

    20Truett
    marraskuu 30, 2022, 11:36 pm

    fayevert: I couldn't agree more with your statement -- and it would be a good point, if I had been arguing that one writer was the end all and be all. You should change your clothes, tighten up the opening that lies between your nasolabial folds and expand the one between your ears: superciliousness doesn't look good on you.

    21ilfait
    joulukuu 6, 2022, 2:16 am

    >1 A_B: The LOA doesn't need to do anything, but I hope that they have the courage, the clarity of vision, and the passion for great art to ignore moralizing philistines from within and without. I have no interest in reading mediocrity, or buying mediocrity for woke points

    I'm looking forward to future volumes of Hemingway's, Fitzgerald's, and McCarthy's work, because I love great literature

    22Truett
    Muokkaaja: joulukuu 17, 2022, 6:34 am

    >21 ilfait: -ilfait

    Like so many others, I hope the LOA continues to employ people with Literary sensibilities far more vast than that of The Great White Patriarchal Canon often pushed by the likes of Harold Bloom (before he -- kinda, sorta-- tried to be more politically correct, including a few more women and genre authros). The LOA needs people who _don't_ use the term "woke" in the same manner that the politically inclined used the term liberal (as if either word should be defined as a prejorative, or used in place of a an expletive).

    While I have nothing against Hemingway, Fitzgerald or even McCarthy, focusing solely on that sort of diet would be like eating only read meat, potatoes and white bread. A healthy, _quality_ -- far from "mediocre" -- diet of fiction and nonfiction is also dependent on the voices of folks like James Baldwin and Toni Morrison and Salman Rushdie and Jhumpa Lahiri and Richard Wright and Octavia E. Butler and Maxine Hong Kingston and...on and on (including, perhaps, someday in the future, Lee Chan-Rae and Louis Erdrich, remarkable writers, both). The American, LOA, literary landscape not only NEEDS more diversity, it is, in fact, born of such diversity. Those who deny it are the same as those who deny that our country was and is made of immigrants.

    I mean, who the hell _wouldn't_ want a liberal helping of literature -- in the most broad sense of that term -- in their personal, or local library? Or in the halls of the Library of Congress for that matter?

    23ilfait
    joulukuu 19, 2022, 12:21 am

    >22 Truett: The only diversity that interests me is diversity of style, perspective, and subject matter. And never at the expense of quality

    When we treat gender and ethnic diversity as the goal, or even a goal, we may eventually stumble on great work, just as we may eventually find greatness using any arbitrary discriminatory criteria. But if experiencing and elevating great work is our goal, the best and only legitimate method is to focus entirely on literary merit. And I don't mean to imply that the appraisal of merit is objective or universal--taste in anything is personal and subjective--but when a reader's or curator's opinion of a novel is shaped by incidentals, like the gender or ethnicity of its author, (a ubiquitous occurrence among moralizers and activists) his opinions and taste should be ignored by anyone and any institution that hopes to be sincere in its passion for the arts. It's a glaring conflict of interest

    You sound like a boomer who thinks we're still living in a pre-90's cultural landscape. There are many activist publishers, including all of the major publishers in the west, with priorities that perfectly align with yours. Your way of thinking's already won--it's become standard practice and de facto law in almost every western academy and publishing house

    Unless our reverence for the wrong kind of diversity changes we'll be lucky, despite the huge population increase, if even one great novel written by a currently unknown or unborn writer in the next 100 years reaches the masses. Thank god for the "Great White Patriarchal Canon"

    24Truett
    Muokkaaja: joulukuu 19, 2022, 3:44 pm

    ilfait: While the manner in which you convey your message seems stable and considered, your last line defines the accepted racism behind your views. And the one fact which you -- and the great many who beat the drum for "the canon" as defined by Those Who Know Better -- often overlook is this: for decades (centuries, even) gender was, in fact, treated as the "goal" (i.e., only male authors; hell, even V.S. Naipaul, a male writer of color, so to speak, went to his grave believing women writers would never be as capable as men); and while you can lie to yourself, the rest of the world knows that writers of color were not always offered the same chances as those immediately accepted into your beloved "Great White Patriarchal Canon".

    I'm not convinced "my way of thinking" -- as if you had a clue -- has already "won", since you completely overlooked the fact that while I embrace the works of guys like Fitzgerald and Hemingway and Styron, I also embrace the works of Butler, Morrison, Lahiri, etc., etc. I also embrace a variety of genres -- something the Great White poseur, Bloom -- the voice of your "canon -- was slow to do. That you haven't seen any greatness in novels written in recent decades says all that needs to be said about your and your pale set of blinders.

    And it should go without saying that I embrace only the best writing: but I don't set White, Male limits on it, as do people of your ilk.

    25gatsby61
    joulukuu 19, 2022, 4:07 pm

    >19 Truett:
    I find your claim disgusting. Nothing in what I state would imply I am the racist you want me to be. I simply want literary merit to stand on its own versus being prequalified first for anything but literature itself and the story it tells.

    26Truett
    Muokkaaja: joulukuu 21, 2022, 1:49 am

    gatsby61: Wait. _When_, exactly, did I write a message to "gatsby61" saying that user had expressed racist opinions?

    Or are _you_ posting as "ilfait" as well?
    If so, there's an oily move -- using two different IDs to create two different "flags" and opinions (perhaps even more) so that you (or perhaps you and a friend) look like a larger group -- which should make your gorge bouyant.

    _If_ so, that would be disgusting, indeed.

    27ilfait
    joulukuu 19, 2022, 10:44 pm

    >26 Truett: I've never flagged someone's post and never would. And I only have one account

    28Truett
    joulukuu 21, 2022, 1:52 am

    ilfait: Hence, "if". And, yeah, I still think (cough) some users on this forum are about as slippery as an unctuous politician. So it goes.