Brexit trade deal with EU update
KeskusteluFolio Society Devotees
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1English-bookseller
Despite real concerns about whether the UK and EU would be able to agree on a trade deal it appears that an Agreement dealing with goods (i.e. not services) has been struck between the two parties.
Assuming this is the case, then FSDs based in the EU should be able to buy books from the UK which will be free of any EU import duties or tariffs.
Good news which is even more welcome as it is unexpected.
Assuming this is the case, then FSDs based in the EU should be able to buy books from the UK which will be free of any EU import duties or tariffs.
Good news which is even more welcome as it is unexpected.
2Mujaddadi
That's a very good news. Are we sure that the deal will allow books to be imported in EU without import duties or tariffs?
3SF-72
>2 Mujaddadi:
That's the question. The EU has a trade deal with Switzerland which I was astonished to read includes a deal on tariffs, but ordinary people and sellers definitely don't profit from that at all. Customs fees and taxes are still due on packages from Switzerland. There have even been cases when customs officials pursued Swiss people from the border to see if they went to a post office, then fined them quite heavily for trying to send stuff without paying customs on it. I really hope that if there's a deal with the UK, it will make it possible for everyone to trade freely, not just some big companies / industries that actually get to profit from the Switzerland deal.
That's the question. The EU has a trade deal with Switzerland which I was astonished to read includes a deal on tariffs, but ordinary people and sellers definitely don't profit from that at all. Customs fees and taxes are still due on packages from Switzerland. There have even been cases when customs officials pursued Swiss people from the border to see if they went to a post office, then fined them quite heavily for trying to send stuff without paying customs on it. I really hope that if there's a deal with the UK, it will make it possible for everyone to trade freely, not just some big companies / industries that actually get to profit from the Switzerland deal.
5Mujaddadi
>3 SF-72: I guess we can only wait. Although the deal is done but the terms are still not clear to me. Custom's website in my country is still displaying the warning that the UK is out of the EU, so we might need to pay duties.
6Mujaddadi
This is an extract from The Guardian article about the deal
“A product would therefore only attract tariffs under the agreement if more than 40% of its pre-finished value was either not of British origin or from a non-EU country such as Japan.“
If that applies to books as well, do we have to pay tariffs on books which are not printed in UK or EU?
“A product would therefore only attract tariffs under the agreement if more than 40% of its pre-finished value was either not of British origin or from a non-EU country such as Japan.“
If that applies to books as well, do we have to pay tariffs on books which are not printed in UK or EU?
7SF-72
>6 Mujaddadi:
Oh dear. That would make things awkward with the books they're printing in China these days.
Oh dear. That would make things awkward with the books they're printing in China these days.
8Mujaddadi
>7 SF-72: Many people here, for some reason, dislike books which are printed in China. So, I guess it’s a good news for them because it will force Folio Society to print more books in Europe.
9SF-72
>8 Mujaddadi:
We'll see. FS only started moving some of their printing there in the context of the referendum, it seemed to be at least partly connected. So if printing in Europe would make things easier for them now, they might reverse that step. (Or not, who knows.) I'd actually welcome that, not because China can't produce good quality (there's good and bad, like in most places), but because I've got a problem with the regime there and how it treats people. I'd rather not support that financially.
We'll see. FS only started moving some of their printing there in the context of the referendum, it seemed to be at least partly connected. So if printing in Europe would make things easier for them now, they might reverse that step. (Or not, who knows.) I'd actually welcome that, not because China can't produce good quality (there's good and bad, like in most places), but because I've got a problem with the regime there and how it treats people. I'd rather not support that financially.
10overthemoon
Maybe they could start printing and binding in UK again.
12Jayked
>10 overthemoon:
Given that a French-based profit-driven multinational gobbled up most of Folio's traditional printing sources,
they don't have many options.
Given that a French-based profit-driven multinational gobbled up most of Folio's traditional printing sources,
they don't have many options.
14MobyRichard
>9 SF-72:
Good to hear a balanced take on things. As I've said before, China has a HUGE domestic luxury market. If Chinese books printed for Western markets kinda suck, it's because that's exactly what the Western publisher asked the Chinese printer to produce -- a cheaper book.
As for the Chinese regime, you can't have it all. You can't demand cheap labor, an endless flow of manufactured goods AND forever wars AND perfect social safety nets without making some bad people rich. The truth is the Chinese Communist Party was able to cash in on the Western debt binge, while not having to give up a single iota of political power or initiate any reforms, as would normally occur when a country industrializes and the citizens get wealthier. Not so much a Chinese industrialization as a Western deindustrialization.
Good to hear a balanced take on things. As I've said before, China has a HUGE domestic luxury market. If Chinese books printed for Western markets kinda suck, it's because that's exactly what the Western publisher asked the Chinese printer to produce -- a cheaper book.
As for the Chinese regime, you can't have it all. You can't demand cheap labor, an endless flow of manufactured goods AND forever wars AND perfect social safety nets without making some bad people rich. The truth is the Chinese Communist Party was able to cash in on the Western debt binge, while not having to give up a single iota of political power or initiate any reforms, as would normally occur when a country industrializes and the citizens get wealthier. Not so much a Chinese industrialization as a Western deindustrialization.
15SF-72
>14 MobyRichard:
'Not so much a Chinese industrialization as a Western deindustrialization.'
True enough, and problematic. It came to bite Germany in its behind at the beginning of corona when we finally realised to what degree we'd made ourselves dependent on other countries, in particular China, with regard to medical equipment.
During lockdown I listened to a talk with an author who'd wanted to publish a new book during that phase. The original plan had been to print it near Wuhan, which couldn't be done then. The publisher then talked to the author and they decided to move production to Italy instead. You can guess what happened next. In the end, the author found out that the book couldn't be finished right then no matter where it was produced because it was important to him that there's a book ribbon - and he was told that those are produced nowhere but in China these days. A dependency on China for book ribbons is not the end of the world, though it seems rather silly, but the same goes for far more important products. That's simply unwise, with regard to any country, not just China. And the way the west just accepts what's going on there in order to get more cheaply produced goods is nothing to be proud of. In that regard I really didn't like the step FS took.
'Not so much a Chinese industrialization as a Western deindustrialization.'
True enough, and problematic. It came to bite Germany in its behind at the beginning of corona when we finally realised to what degree we'd made ourselves dependent on other countries, in particular China, with regard to medical equipment.
During lockdown I listened to a talk with an author who'd wanted to publish a new book during that phase. The original plan had been to print it near Wuhan, which couldn't be done then. The publisher then talked to the author and they decided to move production to Italy instead. You can guess what happened next. In the end, the author found out that the book couldn't be finished right then no matter where it was produced because it was important to him that there's a book ribbon - and he was told that those are produced nowhere but in China these days. A dependency on China for book ribbons is not the end of the world, though it seems rather silly, but the same goes for far more important products. That's simply unwise, with regard to any country, not just China. And the way the west just accepts what's going on there in order to get more cheaply produced goods is nothing to be proud of. In that regard I really didn't like the step FS took.
16joco30
Back to the original subject:
>1 English-bookseller: Assuming this is the case, then FSDs based in the EU should be able to buy books from the UK which will be free of any EU import duties or tariffs.
There's a difference between B2B and B2C. I think EU customers will defnitely have to pay VAT taxes from now on.
Furthermore, from July 2021 new EU VAT rules come in effect that were postponed with 6 months due to the Corona pandemic.
You can do a search for "eu vat july 2021."
in short, biggest changes
Marketplaces (ebay and co) may or will have to collect and pay the VAT on sales of goods sold to EU cutsomers.
Abolition of current VAT exemption for goods with a value below EUR 22
All shipments will need to be cleared through Customs
>1 English-bookseller: Assuming this is the case, then FSDs based in the EU should be able to buy books from the UK which will be free of any EU import duties or tariffs.
There's a difference between B2B and B2C. I think EU customers will defnitely have to pay VAT taxes from now on.
Furthermore, from July 2021 new EU VAT rules come in effect that were postponed with 6 months due to the Corona pandemic.
You can do a search for "eu vat july 2021."
in short, biggest changes
Marketplaces (ebay and co) may or will have to collect and pay the VAT on sales of goods sold to EU cutsomers.
Abolition of current VAT exemption for goods with a value below EUR 22
All shipments will need to be cleared through Customs
17English-bookseller
>16 joco30:
Might it be then possible to save VAT if buyers purchase directly from the UK bookseller rather than via Amazon or ABE Books?
We need to see what the Brexit Treaty provides and what other legislation (whether UK or EU) might apply.
Might it be then possible to save VAT if buyers purchase directly from the UK bookseller rather than via Amazon or ABE Books?
We need to see what the Brexit Treaty provides and what other legislation (whether UK or EU) might apply.
18SF-72
>16 joco30:
If that's true it's very bad news indeed. And pretty much what I was afraid of - it looks like it would be the same as with Switzerland. Regular people don't profit at all from the supposed trade deal and no tariffs there.
If that's true it's very bad news indeed. And pretty much what I was afraid of - it looks like it would be the same as with Switzerland. Regular people don't profit at all from the supposed trade deal and no tariffs there.
19GusLogan
>18 SF-72:
Agreed. For my (anglophile) bookbuying habits that sounds terrible. I guess I’ll have to brush up on my major European languages...
Agreed. For my (anglophile) bookbuying habits that sounds terrible. I guess I’ll have to brush up on my major European languages...
20SF-72
Does anybody here have the access and knowledge to be able to confirm whether or not people who buy from the UK will have to pay fees (VAT, customs fees, whatever the term) when they get their package? I read several German newspaper articles that make it sound like there won't be such a thing. Customs paperwork would be needed only to confirm that goods are actually British and not imported from some other country, then shipped on from the UK. In British articles it looks like one will have to pay VAT etc. I don't have a clue what's correct.
21overthemoon
>15 SF-72: re book ribbons: not true that they can only be produced in China.
I just bought hardback Hamnet from Waterstones, it has a ribbon; it was printed in Falkirk (Scotland), bound in GB by Clays Ltd.
Slightly Foxed hardbacks also have ribbons and are printed and bound in UK.
I just bought hardback Hamnet from Waterstones, it has a ribbon; it was printed in Falkirk (Scotland), bound in GB by Clays Ltd.
Slightly Foxed hardbacks also have ribbons and are printed and bound in UK.
22Jayked
>21 overthemoon:
I think you're missing the point. The book ribbons used by British bookbinders originated in China.
In practice it might be difficult to enforce taxation on books. If one book in a shipment of 10 is Chinese, will customs take the trouble to check, or to assess the trivial amount due if the publisher hasn't calculated it?
I think you're missing the point. The book ribbons used by British bookbinders originated in China.
In practice it might be difficult to enforce taxation on books. If one book in a shipment of 10 is Chinese, will customs take the trouble to check, or to assess the trivial amount due if the publisher hasn't calculated it?
23Uppernorwood
This depends on how the 40% is calculated. Arguably the main attraction of Folio books is the design and intellectual property, which is nothing to do with the printer.
24Czernobog
>20 SF-72: As I understand it FS actually has a choice to collect VAT in advance or leave payment/collection to the customer/shipper. If true it depends on the choice FS makes whether we'll have to pay extra fees to DHL and the like. If they choose the first alternative a book price should be equal to its net price + VAT of destination country. If they choose the second alternative a book price should be equal to its net price (without VAT of destination country).
I just read that printed books in the UK have a zero rate VAT and in the EU most countries have a reduced non zero rate. Not sure how that affect things.
I just read that printed books in the UK have a zero rate VAT and in the EU most countries have a reduced non zero rate. Not sure how that affect things.
25SF-72
>24 Czernobog:
Thanks, that wouldn't be good news at all.
Germany has a 7% tax on books. If books from the UK are treated like imports from the rest of the world (US etc.), that's bad, especially if FS don't collect it. As soon as the shipping company charges the buyer the tax, they add their own fees on top of the actual tax / customs fee. In the past, customs did the actual work and you only paid whatever the state charges on imports. But it became too much work for them and they basically pushed the work onto the German postal service instead in most cases. They charge extra and are much more likely to do it wrongly, and to damage the items one has bought. Courier services always had their own fees, but at least they don't tear open the packages (except for DHL, a German company). Not something to look forward to.
Thanks, that wouldn't be good news at all.
Germany has a 7% tax on books. If books from the UK are treated like imports from the rest of the world (US etc.), that's bad, especially if FS don't collect it. As soon as the shipping company charges the buyer the tax, they add their own fees on top of the actual tax / customs fee. In the past, customs did the actual work and you only paid whatever the state charges on imports. But it became too much work for them and they basically pushed the work onto the German postal service instead in most cases. They charge extra and are much more likely to do it wrongly, and to damage the items one has bought. Courier services always had their own fees, but at least they don't tear open the packages (except for DHL, a German company). Not something to look forward to.
26SF-72
>22 Jayked:
Exactly. The book was produced in Europe, but the book ribbons had to be imported from China.
Exactly. The book was produced in Europe, but the book ribbons had to be imported from China.
27English-bookseller
I suggest that The Folio Society need to check the VAT and imports taxes for their major countries of sale and show on the homepage for each country what the implications are in the light of Brexit and the new UK-EU Trade Agreement. This work might take a few weeks to finalise and get up on the website.
I used to do tax in the City for a living and I suggest that an international tax consultant should be able to prepare such guidance without too much delay or expense.
One quirk is that some taxation authorities (such as the Australian Revenue Office) are prepared to enter into agreements with some marketplaces (such as ABE Books UK) whereby the Australian GST is paid in the UK by the customer upfront on their overseas purchases. The ABE Bookseller in the UK is thereby provided with a manifest that provides a reference for this GST payment which is stuck on the front of the packed order. This allows the package to pass through Australian Customs without any fuss or delay.
I used to do tax in the City for a living and I suggest that an international tax consultant should be able to prepare such guidance without too much delay or expense.
One quirk is that some taxation authorities (such as the Australian Revenue Office) are prepared to enter into agreements with some marketplaces (such as ABE Books UK) whereby the Australian GST is paid in the UK by the customer upfront on their overseas purchases. The ABE Bookseller in the UK is thereby provided with a manifest that provides a reference for this GST payment which is stuck on the front of the packed order. This allows the package to pass through Australian Customs without any fuss or delay.
28joco30
>20 SF-72: Does anybody here have the access and knowledge to be able to confirm whether or not people who buy from the UK will have to pay fees
As long as the details of the deal aren't made public, I don't think you'll find anyone with that knowledge here.
But even if the deal includes an exempt from VAT for all goods purchased, those goods will no longer be able to move freely between the UK and the EU. Declarations, checks, ... will still have to be made.
As long as the details of the deal aren't made public, I don't think you'll find anyone with that knowledge here.
But even if the deal includes an exempt from VAT for all goods purchased, those goods will no longer be able to move freely between the UK and the EU. Declarations, checks, ... will still have to be made.
29GusLogan
>25 SF-72:
Something like this _probably_ wouldn’t really prevent me from placing an order a year from the Folio Society during one of the sales, but it would reduce the likelihood of me buying a book or two ”at random”. It would seriously affect my scattered purchases from UK secondhand booksellers, though. That would cost me quite some joy, but I have no trouble grasping the fact that neither the narrow majority who voted for Brexit or the UK government are primarily concered with EU sales of old books or the bibliophilic satisfaction of citizens of still-EU countries. And I doubt the FS as a commercial actor would have opted for Brexit given a choice. So in that sense I shall take care to pity them rather than be annoyed at them if buying from them becomes less attractive...
(As a one-time resident of the UK and life-long anglophile I am deeply saddened by Brexit.)
Something like this _probably_ wouldn’t really prevent me from placing an order a year from the Folio Society during one of the sales, but it would reduce the likelihood of me buying a book or two ”at random”. It would seriously affect my scattered purchases from UK secondhand booksellers, though. That would cost me quite some joy, but I have no trouble grasping the fact that neither the narrow majority who voted for Brexit or the UK government are primarily concered with EU sales of old books or the bibliophilic satisfaction of citizens of still-EU countries. And I doubt the FS as a commercial actor would have opted for Brexit given a choice. So in that sense I shall take care to pity them rather than be annoyed at them if buying from them becomes less attractive...
(As a one-time resident of the UK and life-long anglophile I am deeply saddened by Brexit.)
30didaho
So I am browsing my watch list on eBay, and today eBay are already listing substantial import duties to ship books from the UK to EU (Ireland in my case).
To give an example, one FS LE I have my eye on is €655. But since yesterday, an additional €145 will be applied by eBay as "import duties". Yikes!
That is going to seriously restrict my UK based purchases in 2021, and I am now glad I front-loading some LE purchases in November and December.
To give an example, one FS LE I have my eye on is €655. But since yesterday, an additional €145 will be applied by eBay as "import duties". Yikes!
That is going to seriously restrict my UK based purchases in 2021, and I am now glad I front-loading some LE purchases in November and December.
31mnmcdwl
Reading through this thread, I’m rather surprised that there are customs duties on books and printed materials. Is this unique to EU countries? I can say with certainty that Japan’s customs rate on such items is 0. The only time I’ve been slammed with customs on a personal level is when I bought shoes from the UK (30% customs plus 8% consumption tax). Needless to say, I was quite happy that the tariff for leather goods and shoes will be reduced to 0 under the Japan-EU FTA (and by extension the UK-Japan FTA since the text is basically the same).
32didaho
Same story for me on amazon.co.uk, substantial import duties now being applied on shipping from UK to Ireland.
33SF-72
I guess that answers that. I still keep reading news about no tariffs and no customs fees, but that's clearly wrong. By the way, Bookdepository currently don't ship to the EU at all.
34SF-72
>31 mnmcdwl:
This varies from country to country and isn't the same throughout the EU. Ireland has 0% tax on books, as did the UK when it was a member, Germany has 7%, the Netherlands 9% - you get the idea. Personally, I think it's a good idea to keep books tax free to keep prices down at least a bit and thus make it easier for people (and that definitely includes kids) to buy and read books. Germany only approaches this idea somewhat by using the reduced tax as opposed to the full 19% due on most other things.
This varies from country to country and isn't the same throughout the EU. Ireland has 0% tax on books, as did the UK when it was a member, Germany has 7%, the Netherlands 9% - you get the idea. Personally, I think it's a good idea to keep books tax free to keep prices down at least a bit and thus make it easier for people (and that definitely includes kids) to buy and read books. Germany only approaches this idea somewhat by using the reduced tax as opposed to the full 19% due on most other things.
35Czernobog
>30 didaho: €145 of €655 is 22%. Books have a zero rate sales tax both in Ireland and the UK, so this doesn't make sense to me at all. Maybe they are applying the higher sales tax rate for regular products.
36didaho
>35 Czernobog: I agree it makes no sense. I went through many books while logged into my account, and the only thing in common with the books applying high import duties where they are shipped via eBay's global distribution service. So perhaps they are mistakenly applying a blanket rate against all goods? Hopefully this is a temporary glitch.
37Juniper_tree
>36 didaho: I’m sure I’ve read that EBay just takes a blanket approach, you’d hope that low tax items help to offset the cost of others but the cynic in me says they just pocket any left over cash.
38English-bookseller
The Brexit deal made between the UK and the EU provides for no import duties, tariffs or quotas.
What might be happening in the examples above is that the EU importing country (e.g. Ireland) is imposing VAT on the purchase of books (which is of course a universal EU tax) when they are imported from the UK.
The UK when it was a member of the EU (or 'EEC' as it was called back in the 1970s) insisted that a special case be made in the UK for books as otherwise VAT charged on them would be a tax on learning. A very civilised attitude I hope you all agree.
The way the UK got its VAT relief on books was to make them zero-rated for VAT i.e. the books as goods were under EU law still chargeable to VAT but the UK had a special zero-rate on them!
With some other countries (Australia), ABE Books has negotiated with the importing country to the effect that when an Australian customer buys the book say from my bookshop in the UK, they are charged GST upfront by ABE. ABE then remits this tax to the Australian government and the bookseller is given a reference on the manifest which shows that GST has already been paid so that Customs in Australia allow the import of the book without further intervention.
It might be helpful if ABE Books and other internet platforms could negotiate an agreement with the EU that EU-based customers pay the purchase VAT upfront.
In summary while the UK still has the new trade deal with the EU that came into effect today, no duties, tariffs or quotas will be due on UK imports to EU member states.
What might be happening in the examples above is that the EU importing country (e.g. Ireland) is imposing VAT on the purchase of books (which is of course a universal EU tax) when they are imported from the UK.
The UK when it was a member of the EU (or 'EEC' as it was called back in the 1970s) insisted that a special case be made in the UK for books as otherwise VAT charged on them would be a tax on learning. A very civilised attitude I hope you all agree.
The way the UK got its VAT relief on books was to make them zero-rated for VAT i.e. the books as goods were under EU law still chargeable to VAT but the UK had a special zero-rate on them!
With some other countries (Australia), ABE Books has negotiated with the importing country to the effect that when an Australian customer buys the book say from my bookshop in the UK, they are charged GST upfront by ABE. ABE then remits this tax to the Australian government and the bookseller is given a reference on the manifest which shows that GST has already been paid so that Customs in Australia allow the import of the book without further intervention.
It might be helpful if ABE Books and other internet platforms could negotiate an agreement with the EU that EU-based customers pay the purchase VAT upfront.
In summary while the UK still has the new trade deal with the EU that came into effect today, no duties, tariffs or quotas will be due on UK imports to EU member states.
39didaho
>38 English-bookseller: Ireland also has 0% VAT on books. This is the exact text on eBay beside the ~20% "Import charges" amount I am now seeing for the first time today:
"This amount includes applicable customs duties, taxes, brokerage and other fees. This amount is subject to change until you make payment. If you reside in an EU member state besides UK, import VAT on this purchase is not recoverable. For additional information, see the Global Shipping Programme terms and conditions".
It will be interesting to see how FS handle this (hopefully via shipping from Spain).
"This amount includes applicable customs duties, taxes, brokerage and other fees. This amount is subject to change until you make payment. If you reside in an EU member state besides UK, import VAT on this purchase is not recoverable. For additional information, see the Global Shipping Programme terms and conditions".
It will be interesting to see how FS handle this (hopefully via shipping from Spain).
40SF-72
About ebay's global shipping system (EGSS for keep things shorter): I've been buying from outside the EU for quite a few years. At first, EGSS didn't charge any VAT on books even when they should have when sending to my country. It seemed to be connected to the fact that they imported everything through the UK, which has zero VAT on books. But they always added something extra to other goods like DVDs, so they never charged the actual VAT / customs fee etc. Then that changed, maybe because of Brexit - I could imagine that they now import into the EU differently than before. But whatever the reason: Some time ago they started charging considerably more than the actual fee due on books. Even books whose value is low enough to be charged no tax or customs fees whatsoever are charged those supposed customs fees by EGSS. Which is why I'm not buying anything through them. Unfortunately, a large number of book sellers from the UK have started using them, which will cut me off from most purchases there since I'm absolutely not willing to be ripped off like this. Charge an extra few Euros, okay, but not this much.
>38 English-bookseller:
I've read about the 'no duties or tariffs' we supposedly have in that deal. I suspect that this works the way it does with the 'free-trade' deal the EU has with Switzerland - no duties etc. for businesses dealing with other businesses, but there are fees for selling to private consumers, at least judging by what's happening on ebay and amazon and according to a help page by Royal Mail here: https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/106
'Items sent to the EU from England, Scotland and Wales are subject (to) VAT and duties in the EU.'
I can't tell you just how frustrated I am. When I read the news about the deal, I'd actually hoped this would benefit everyone, not just 'big business'.
>38 English-bookseller:
I've read about the 'no duties or tariffs' we supposedly have in that deal. I suspect that this works the way it does with the 'free-trade' deal the EU has with Switzerland - no duties etc. for businesses dealing with other businesses, but there are fees for selling to private consumers, at least judging by what's happening on ebay and amazon and according to a help page by Royal Mail here: https://personal.help.royalmail.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/106
'Items sent to the EU from England, Scotland and Wales are subject (to) VAT and duties in the EU.'
I can't tell you just how frustrated I am. When I read the news about the deal, I'd actually hoped this would benefit everyone, not just 'big business'.
41SF-72
>39 didaho:
I'd hoped so too. Unfortunately, they stopped shipping from Spain recently and are now using a company that ships directly from the UK, at least in my case / Germany. (And I had lots of transport damage, which wasn't an issue with Spain at all.) Ideally, one could pay the tax directly to FS, but I suspect the easiest way for them might be to just fill in a customs form, then let the buyer deal with it. Which will be more expensive than paying up front (there are extra fees when the shipping companies have to do it this way), and also much more hassle. Suffice it to say, I'll be generally less likely to buy from FS then and will try to reduce the number of packages by combined purchases, too.
I'd hoped so too. Unfortunately, they stopped shipping from Spain recently and are now using a company that ships directly from the UK, at least in my case / Germany. (And I had lots of transport damage, which wasn't an issue with Spain at all.) Ideally, one could pay the tax directly to FS, but I suspect the easiest way for them might be to just fill in a customs form, then let the buyer deal with it. Which will be more expensive than paying up front (there are extra fees when the shipping companies have to do it this way), and also much more hassle. Suffice it to say, I'll be generally less likely to buy from FS then and will try to reduce the number of packages by combined purchases, too.
42Cat_of_Ulthar
Welcome to the sunny uplands of Brave New Brexit Britain.
Evetrything is wonderful. Everyone got exactly what they voted for/were promised.
The thousands of lorries stuck in Kent were just an illusion; we know exactly what we are doing.
Cynical? Moi?
'I wish I were a sea squirt, if life became a strain,
I'd veg out on the nearest rock and reabsorb my brain.'
(Henry Marsh, I believe.)
You have to laugh, don't you?
Happy New Year ;-)
Evetrything is wonderful. Everyone got exactly what they voted for/were promised.
The thousands of lorries stuck in Kent were just an illusion; we know exactly what we are doing.
Cynical? Moi?
'I wish I were a sea squirt, if life became a strain,
I'd veg out on the nearest rock and reabsorb my brain.'
(Henry Marsh, I believe.)
You have to laugh, don't you?
Happy New Year ;-)
43sekhmet0108
This is all such disappointing news. I have bought a lot of FS books recently, but really wanted to get myself a few more.
But now, with the VAT and the return of the shipping, it seems so stupid that i didn't buy some of the things i wanted. I kept foolishly hoping for the sale till it was too late to order (and receive the books within December).
But now, with the VAT and the return of the shipping, it seems so stupid that i didn't buy some of the things i wanted. I kept foolishly hoping for the sale till it was too late to order (and receive the books within December).
44SF-72
I just saw a typical example of the way Ebay's global shipping system handles customs: It should be 7% VAT for books being shipped to Germany. With them it's 25%, and that's on top of the extra shipping cost. They clearly make a nice profit on that 'service'. I really wish sellers wouldn't use them, but they're being told that it's easier for them (true) and better for the customer (not true anymore).
45SF-72
>43 sekhmet0108:
The way I understand one paragraph in the contract (someone linked to the full text, it might have been Royal Mail), everything shipped before January still falls under the old rules, everything shipped afterwards doesn't. So in hindsight I would have been rather nice if FS had started the sale in the old year and seen to it that early orders were shipped then, too. They did so last year, an order I made on the 24th left the warehouse the same day. I was very surprised, but quite impressed, too. But that's water under the bridge.
The way I understand one paragraph in the contract (someone linked to the full text, it might have been Royal Mail), everything shipped before January still falls under the old rules, everything shipped afterwards doesn't. So in hindsight I would have been rather nice if FS had started the sale in the old year and seen to it that early orders were shipped then, too. They did so last year, an order I made on the 24th left the warehouse the same day. I was very surprised, but quite impressed, too. But that's water under the bridge.
46LesMiserables
Brexit is good news for Britons. Teething is a necessary part of anything new. Expecting otherwise is naivety.
Here in Australia, the Government deals with individual countries or blocks on a case by case basis and works absolutely fine.
Here in Australia, the Government deals with individual countries or blocks on a case by case basis and works absolutely fine.
47SF-72
>46 LesMiserables:
It certainly isn't good news for a lot of smaller sellers who are losing customers and either have to deal with excessive paperwork / costs or just quit selling internationally. Which some of them do. Many Britons have also realised that they're now dealing with much higher costs when buying from elsewhere and that many companies don't sell to the UK anymore or only at a much higher price and with higher shipping fees. Germany, for example, just doubled the shipping fees to the UK since it's not in the EU anymore, where there are rules about pricing. I know it's worth it to some, but for others it's a really undesirable situation.
It certainly isn't good news for a lot of smaller sellers who are losing customers and either have to deal with excessive paperwork / costs or just quit selling internationally. Which some of them do. Many Britons have also realised that they're now dealing with much higher costs when buying from elsewhere and that many companies don't sell to the UK anymore or only at a much higher price and with higher shipping fees. Germany, for example, just doubled the shipping fees to the UK since it's not in the EU anymore, where there are rules about pricing. I know it's worth it to some, but for others it's a really undesirable situation.
48LesMiserables
>47 SF-72:
Doors close and doors open. For every seeming penalty, an opportunity will arise in equilibrium.
Doors close and doors open. For every seeming penalty, an opportunity will arise in equilibrium.
49SF-72
>48 LesMiserables:
A nice adage, not that I see this in real life that often or in this case specifically. I have to pay more and can buy less in the only English-speaking country I could buy from without customs getting involved (English-language books, DVDs etc.) and with reasonable shipping fees. There's no 'opportunity' balancing that out - just yet another unpleasant development, along with some in my country, like the removal of the 22-Euro threshold under which I could at least buy small stuff without the state cashing in. It works the same in the other direction from what I've heard from Britons.
A nice adage, not that I see this in real life that often or in this case specifically. I have to pay more and can buy less in the only English-speaking country I could buy from without customs getting involved (English-language books, DVDs etc.) and with reasonable shipping fees. There's no 'opportunity' balancing that out - just yet another unpleasant development, along with some in my country, like the removal of the 22-Euro threshold under which I could at least buy small stuff without the state cashing in. It works the same in the other direction from what I've heard from Britons.
50English-bookseller
I am a bookseller based near London affected by the imposition of EU input tax and other charges raised by courier firms. My sales to the EU are right down.
While we were members of the EU, we did not have sovereign control of our courts or of our laws.
In some ways - like other EU members - we were a sham democracy.
What price democracy and sovereignty?
If it is worth fighting for ... it is in my opinion certainly worth some UK traders being rather poorer.
While we were members of the EU, we did not have sovereign control of our courts or of our laws.
In some ways - like other EU members - we were a sham democracy.
What price democracy and sovereignty?
If it is worth fighting for ... it is in my opinion certainly worth some UK traders being rather poorer.
51David_Mauduit
>48 LesMiserables:
The only door I see opening here is the one of amazon which can sell english books from their french or german website.
This situation gives an advantage to large companies that have the scale to distribute their products from many locations.
Folio will lose a lot of orders (if not customers all together) and there is no other company that sell their books.
Maybe they will reopen their Spanish dispatch center?
Edited typo
The only door I see opening here is the one of amazon which can sell english books from their french or german website.
This situation gives an advantage to large companies that have the scale to distribute their products from many locations.
Folio will lose a lot of orders (if not customers all together) and there is no other company that sell their books.
Maybe they will reopen their Spanish dispatch center?
Edited typo
52HarpsichordKnight
In the short-term, Brexit's effects are mostly going to be negative for companies like the Folio Society and their customers, as change is never easy. A bit further down the line, it's impossible to tell, and hopefully we'll see some positives.
I voted Remain, but I have to admit the EU has some serious weaknesses - look at the recent disaster over vaccine procurement.
Hopefully the UK rises to the challenge of going it alone, and things improve for book buyers and sellers.
I voted Remain, but I have to admit the EU has some serious weaknesses - look at the recent disaster over vaccine procurement.
Hopefully the UK rises to the challenge of going it alone, and things improve for book buyers and sellers.
53cronshaw
>52 HarpsichordKnight: I don't know any government that doesn't have some serious weakness, certainly not any British government of the past decade. The nest of chirruping birdbrains that currently governs the United Kingdom hardly assists one in thinking positively about a future outside the world's most powerful single market.
55SF-72
>54 MobyRichard:
Oh dear.
I actually don't feel that my freedom is in any way curtailed by Germany being in the EU. Quite the opposite, with free trade, freedom of movement etc. I've lived long enough to remember border checks, limits on what you could buy, and so on just half an hour away at the French and German border. It wasn't fun or worth the refusal to work in a team, which is what the EU is to me. There have been times when the EU actually curtailed Germany's attempts to cut into our freedoms, which I appreciate. And the fact that one of the first things the UK government used its new-found 'freedom' from EU regulations for was to re-introduce a pesticide that kills bees and other animals on a large scale is also hardly a good sign. Is the EU perfect? Certainly not. Neither is any local government. I'd rather have the huge advantages and a few (to me) smaller flaws than going back to an isolated Germany.
Oh dear.
I actually don't feel that my freedom is in any way curtailed by Germany being in the EU. Quite the opposite, with free trade, freedom of movement etc. I've lived long enough to remember border checks, limits on what you could buy, and so on just half an hour away at the French and German border. It wasn't fun or worth the refusal to work in a team, which is what the EU is to me. There have been times when the EU actually curtailed Germany's attempts to cut into our freedoms, which I appreciate. And the fact that one of the first things the UK government used its new-found 'freedom' from EU regulations for was to re-introduce a pesticide that kills bees and other animals on a large scale is also hardly a good sign. Is the EU perfect? Certainly not. Neither is any local government. I'd rather have the huge advantages and a few (to me) smaller flaws than going back to an isolated Germany.
56DMulvee
>55 SF-72: I realise that this thread is about politics, but the pesticide you mention is used in 11 EU states, so this is not a fair or accurate criticism
57LesMiserables
All being said and done, the UK now is free and unshackled to move forward on its own terms. This surely is a good thing overall for commerce.
58HarpsichordKnight
>53 cronshaw: Fair point. My hope is that no longer being able to blame the EU for everything leads to some parliamentary reforms to give us something better than the current government.
I concede this may be optimistic.
I concede this may be optimistic.
59SF-72
>56 DMulvee:
That's not what I read. The criticism of it came from the UK, not the EU, and I found it believable. But whatever the background, this kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed no matter where.
That being said, and that's not a reaction to your post but to the general development, I'm not on Librarything for extended discussions with Brexiteers who will love what's going on no matter how harmful it is and what negative consequences it has. That seems like pure ideology to me, not like looking at facts. I can understand some of the criticism of the EU, but find it silly to equate what's just happening with 'freedom' (lots of freedoms are actually lost, it's called freedom of movement and free trade for a reason), serious business problems with a glorious opportunity and so on. I hear very different thoughts on this from too many small businesses and see some of the ugly consequences as a buyer. And yes, some of that is exacerbated by EU decisions, which wouldn't be relevant with the UK as a member, though. It's also not desirable that big companies like amazon are clearly profiting even more, since they can make buying easy and comfortable despite it all, while smaller businesses have problems as a consequence and buying from them has become much less attractive and more expensive for both sides. But if all that makes some people happy, that's their right, of course. I just can't agree at all.
That's not what I read. The criticism of it came from the UK, not the EU, and I found it believable. But whatever the background, this kind of stuff shouldn't be allowed no matter where.
That being said, and that's not a reaction to your post but to the general development, I'm not on Librarything for extended discussions with Brexiteers who will love what's going on no matter how harmful it is and what negative consequences it has. That seems like pure ideology to me, not like looking at facts. I can understand some of the criticism of the EU, but find it silly to equate what's just happening with 'freedom' (lots of freedoms are actually lost, it's called freedom of movement and free trade for a reason), serious business problems with a glorious opportunity and so on. I hear very different thoughts on this from too many small businesses and see some of the ugly consequences as a buyer. And yes, some of that is exacerbated by EU decisions, which wouldn't be relevant with the UK as a member, though. It's also not desirable that big companies like amazon are clearly profiting even more, since they can make buying easy and comfortable despite it all, while smaller businesses have problems as a consequence and buying from them has become much less attractive and more expensive for both sides. But if all that makes some people happy, that's their right, of course. I just can't agree at all.
60didaho
Actions have consequences. I wish my British book selling friends well, but these changes are structural, not temporary glitches, so your market has reduced in size permanently. I hope you feel it was all worthwhile in 5-10 years, but patriotism does not pay the bills.
On my side, my UK eBay purchases are now ceased (not worth it), and I suspect direct purchases from FS will now drop off considerably (they were already overpriced).
I may drop of here to, as I am sad to see politics raise its ugly head (we have enough on social media). I despise it.
So long.
On my side, my UK eBay purchases are now ceased (not worth it), and I suspect direct purchases from FS will now drop off considerably (they were already overpriced).
I may drop of here to, as I am sad to see politics raise its ugly head (we have enough on social media). I despise it.
So long.
61Jayked
While it's very unfortunate for European customers, Brexit shouldn't break the bank for FS. The UK has always been its biggest market. Around 5 years ago the USA accounted for another 35%, a figure that has increased since according to a MS Omni interview last year: https://moneyweek.com/features/profiles/600901/five-questions-for-joanna-reynold....
When you add other English-speaking markets such as Australia and Canada, exports to Europe can't account for too sizeable a portion of sales. A bigger problem might be printing in Europe. You might see more Chinese product.
When you add other English-speaking markets such as Australia and Canada, exports to Europe can't account for too sizeable a portion of sales. A bigger problem might be printing in Europe. You might see more Chinese product.
63Mujaddadi
As a non European, here is what I think about Brexit. I think nationalism is foolish. I think taking freedom from young people to move to 27 different countries is foolish. I think leaving the biggest trading block, instead of solving whatever issues people have with the EU, is foolish. Many people were celebrating that now they will have blue passports. If the blue passport was that much important to them, they could have that passport while remaining in the EU. There were no restrictions for it.
We all know what nationalism has caused in Europe in the 20th Century. Besides, people believe they can now have their own rules and standards after Brexit, sure but they still have to follow EU rules while doing trade with them. The only difference is, now they will have to do it with more restrictions.
We all know what nationalism has caused in Europe in the 20th Century. Besides, people believe they can now have their own rules and standards after Brexit, sure but they still have to follow EU rules while doing trade with them. The only difference is, now they will have to do it with more restrictions.
64Jobasha
>63 Mujaddadi:
I hate to be political on this of all forums, but these points echo my own sentiments.
I hate to be political on this of all forums, but these points echo my own sentiments.
65bookish_elf
What is the tax update on FS books shipped to EU? Did anyone get any FS books recently shipped to EU? I would like to know the situation in countries like France and Germany.
66David_Mauduit
>65 bookish_elf:
You will most likely have to pay the VAT according to the rate of the country you are ordering from (e.g. 5.5% in France) + some fix administrative fee on top of it (around 20 euros depending on the delivery service).
You will most likely have to pay the VAT according to the rate of the country you are ordering from (e.g. 5.5% in France) + some fix administrative fee on top of it (around 20 euros depending on the delivery service).
67N11284
>65 bookish_elf:
Not from FS and as I'm in Ireland no VAT is applicable. When I put a book into my basket and proceed to the checkout this is what I see.
This means that for me eBay.co.uk is not out of the question. I have tried eBay.fr as an alternative and even though the selection of FS editions from non UK sellers is small , at least I only pay the postage. BTW P&P within the UK was £4.50
Not from FS and as I'm in Ireland no VAT is applicable. When I put a book into my basket and proceed to the checkout this is what I see.
This means that for me eBay.co.uk is not out of the question. I have tried eBay.fr as an alternative and even though the selection of FS editions from non UK sellers is small , at least I only pay the postage. BTW P&P within the UK was £4.50
68English-bookseller
For those who do not understand Brexit, and wish to understand why so many millions of us voted for it, I attach a sensible article on the subject. Note that in the first referendum on membership I voted to remain and I completely understand and accept that there are both pros and cons for either of the options on the ballot paper. The author is a very able economist who writes mainly for The Telegraph. I - and you probably - hope that this is my last post on this subject!
Angela Merkel’s disastrous legacy is Brexit and a broken EU
'Mutti' is a canny and tactical politician but leaves a trail of wreckage behind her after running Europe's biggest economy for 16 years
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Angela Merkel is more responsible for Brexit than any other political figure in Europe, on either side of the Channel. She bears the greatest responsibility for the ‘Japanisation’ and austerity bias of monetary union. She exalts the German mercantilist trade surpluses that render the whole euro project ultimately unworkable.
We all feel fond of Mutti as she winds down her 16-year reign and ushers in her chosen successor: Armin Laschet, the "continuity candidate" and folksy operator who narrowly won the Christian Democratic leadership contest over the weekend.
The Chancellor is immensely popular. The low-key style of the vicar’s daughter has caught the German mood. She is one of the few European leaders still trusted over the handling of the pandemic. It is hard to think of any figure in Berlin better able to mask German hegemony and throw a reassuring comfort blanket over Europe.
But given the blizzard of superlatives over recent days - bordering on hagiography - some dissent is in order. Personality must be separated from policies.
Her Christian Democrat alliance (CDU-CSU) suffered its biggest defeat since the Second World War in the elections of 2017. The German political landscape fractured. Votes splintered in all directions. The hard-right Alternative fur Deutschland became the official opposition in the Bundestag. Merkel held onto power because the two great Volksparteien - Christian Democrats and Social Democrats - clung to each other on the shrinking raft.
Her own personal standing is not transferable to Mr Laschet, the coal miner’s son still living in the coal age. He opened a new coal-fired plant (Datteln-4) last year, asserting with a straight face and Trumpian surrealism that it would be good for climate change. There goes Europe’s net-zero authority.
While Merkel has presided over an era of economic outperformance within Europe, it is not a Wirtschaftwunder by global standards. Germany has had one of the slowest growing economies in the OECD over the last quarter-century, slower even than Japan. Productivity growth has averaged 1.2pc annually since 1995, compared to 1.7pc in the US, or 3.9pc in Korea (OECD data).
Angeline Germany has echoes of the Brezhnev era. The immobilism is remarkable, a point made by both Marcel Fratzscher in Die Deutschland Illusion; and by Die Welt’s Olaf Gersemann in his book The Germany Bubble: the Last Hurrah of a Great Economic Nation.
The country was for a while able to ride the "China wave" as a supplier of capital goods for Asia. But China’s catch-up phase has since turned into import substitution at home, and mid-technology conquest abroad, more or less destroying the German solar industry in the process.
Germany has not made the digital switch in time – unlike Korea – and this is becoming existential as cars metamorphose into computers on wheels. Tesla is worth three times as much as VW, Daimler, and BMW combined. Apple dwarfs the entire market capitalisation of the DAX index.
Deutschland Inc is not worth much any more, a fate it shares with UK Limited. Merkel has presided over this structural decay. It is not her fault but nor has she done anything about it.
The German economy looks good only within the regional beauty contest of Europe. Others are in worse shape. The deformed structure of monetary union has had the effect of leveraging relative supremacy. Germany gained eurozone competitiveness in the early 2000s through an "internal devaluation". It compressed real wages through the Hartz IV reforms.
Once southern Europe had slipped behind within the closed deflationary structure of the euro, the only way to claw back ground was to carry out their own internal devaluations, a near impossible task against the German anchor. The effect of hairshirt policies in so many countries at once was to tip the whole system into a contractionary vortex.
Merkel did not create this structure but she has never questioned it either, or explained to the German people why it has to change. Her government imposed austerity overkill on Club Med through its control over the key bodies in the EU apparatus. The burden of adjustment fell on the debtor states, not the creditors. This cannot work.
She let the eurozone debt crisis (actually a capital flow crisis) fester for three years before contagion to the Italian and Spanish debt markets forced her hand in June 2012. Only then did she agree to let the European Central Bank assume its role as lender of last resort. It took direct intervention by Barack Obama to extract this concession.
Merkel then reneged on a summit deal for full banking union. The sovereign-bank "doom loop" remains in place and is even larger today.
She resisted the necessary move to fiscal union at every stage. When the pandemic hit she agreed to a one-off Recovery Fund that reverts to the status quo ante over time, heading off permanent debt mutualisation. In short, she has spent 16 years refusing to rebuild the euro on workable foundations. Her idea of fiscal union is fiscal surveillance: the Stability Pact, Two Pack, Six Pack, and the Fiscal Compact. She bequeaths a broken system to her successor.
This mismanagement of monetary union altered British perceptions of the EU before the Brexit Referendum. It also led to the migration of several hundred thousand economic refugees from Southern Europe, and displaced flows from Eastern Europe into the UK. This combined into a perfect storm with Merkel’s precipitous decision to go it alone in 2015 and open the floodgates from the Middle East, ignoring David Cameron’s counsel that the Syrian refugee crisis was best handled in the Levant.
By then, of course, the Chancellor had already sown the seeds of British exasperation. It began in earnest when she resuscitated the European Constitution – rebranded the Lisbon Treaty – after it had already been rejected by the French and Dutch people in referenda. Her motive was obvious. It increased the German voting weight in the EU institutions.
This was a legitimate step to reflect Germany’s increased population after East-West reunification. But it also changed the EU’s character. Germany was no longer primus inter pares in an intergovernmental confederacy. It became primus sine pares in a proto-federation. Chalk and cheese.
France strangely allowed this loss of sacred parity to slip through. Nicholas Sarkozy was fobbed off with a few baubles. Tony Blair pretended it was just a cleaning-up exercise. The treaty was rammed through the EU Council by executive fiat. Nobody wanted to face voters again. Only the Irish were given a referendum. When they voted no, they had their feet held to the fire, and were made to vote again.
Merkel’s Lisbon Treaty was a watershed moment. It is one thing to advance the project by the Monnet method of stealth, it is another to do so once major proposals have been explicitly rejected by electorates. It further undermined the EU’s legitimacy among a coterie of British politicians, commentators, and financiers, and these people would later matter.
The treaty gave the European Court of Justice jurisdiction over all areas of EU law for the first time, upgrading it from an economic tribunal into a supreme court. The Charter of Fundamental Rights became legally binding. The ECJ suddenly acquired the means to rule on anything. It has since used that power expansively, as the German constitutional court, ironically, protests with irritation.
The Common Law protocol in the treaty exempting British courts from such encroachment was ignored before the ink was dry. The European Court began to strike down British laws on criminal procedure or data sharing with the US intelligence agencies. Another slice of influential British opinion peeled away.
Chancellor Merkel persisted. She circumvented a British veto of the Fiscal Compact, ramming through the treaty by other means, and visibly isolating the Prime Minister. All Britain had asked for was a safeguard clause for the City.
She installed ultra-integrationist Jean-Claude Juncker as Commission chief against British objections. This violated the Brussels convention that no major state is ever overruled on this key post. She refused a compromise despite warnings from David Cameron that a taste of Junckerism would further erode British consent for the EU, as proved to be the case.
If it is in Germany’s national interest to keep the UK tied deeply into the European system – and few Germans dispute that – one can hardly argue that she made a good fist of it. She meddled enough with the constitutional machinery of Europe to irritate the British, but not enough to sort out the EU’s real problems or to make monetary union fit for purpose.
"Mutti" is an admirable person and a canny, tactical politician but she will leave a set of unstable equilibria, a polite way of saying a trail of wreckage. If Laschet is the continuity candidate, Europe needs help.
Angela Merkel’s disastrous legacy is Brexit and a broken EU
'Mutti' is a canny and tactical politician but leaves a trail of wreckage behind her after running Europe's biggest economy for 16 years
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Angela Merkel is more responsible for Brexit than any other political figure in Europe, on either side of the Channel. She bears the greatest responsibility for the ‘Japanisation’ and austerity bias of monetary union. She exalts the German mercantilist trade surpluses that render the whole euro project ultimately unworkable.
We all feel fond of Mutti as she winds down her 16-year reign and ushers in her chosen successor: Armin Laschet, the "continuity candidate" and folksy operator who narrowly won the Christian Democratic leadership contest over the weekend.
The Chancellor is immensely popular. The low-key style of the vicar’s daughter has caught the German mood. She is one of the few European leaders still trusted over the handling of the pandemic. It is hard to think of any figure in Berlin better able to mask German hegemony and throw a reassuring comfort blanket over Europe.
But given the blizzard of superlatives over recent days - bordering on hagiography - some dissent is in order. Personality must be separated from policies.
Her Christian Democrat alliance (CDU-CSU) suffered its biggest defeat since the Second World War in the elections of 2017. The German political landscape fractured. Votes splintered in all directions. The hard-right Alternative fur Deutschland became the official opposition in the Bundestag. Merkel held onto power because the two great Volksparteien - Christian Democrats and Social Democrats - clung to each other on the shrinking raft.
Her own personal standing is not transferable to Mr Laschet, the coal miner’s son still living in the coal age. He opened a new coal-fired plant (Datteln-4) last year, asserting with a straight face and Trumpian surrealism that it would be good for climate change. There goes Europe’s net-zero authority.
While Merkel has presided over an era of economic outperformance within Europe, it is not a Wirtschaftwunder by global standards. Germany has had one of the slowest growing economies in the OECD over the last quarter-century, slower even than Japan. Productivity growth has averaged 1.2pc annually since 1995, compared to 1.7pc in the US, or 3.9pc in Korea (OECD data).
Angeline Germany has echoes of the Brezhnev era. The immobilism is remarkable, a point made by both Marcel Fratzscher in Die Deutschland Illusion; and by Die Welt’s Olaf Gersemann in his book The Germany Bubble: the Last Hurrah of a Great Economic Nation.
The country was for a while able to ride the "China wave" as a supplier of capital goods for Asia. But China’s catch-up phase has since turned into import substitution at home, and mid-technology conquest abroad, more or less destroying the German solar industry in the process.
Germany has not made the digital switch in time – unlike Korea – and this is becoming existential as cars metamorphose into computers on wheels. Tesla is worth three times as much as VW, Daimler, and BMW combined. Apple dwarfs the entire market capitalisation of the DAX index.
Deutschland Inc is not worth much any more, a fate it shares with UK Limited. Merkel has presided over this structural decay. It is not her fault but nor has she done anything about it.
The German economy looks good only within the regional beauty contest of Europe. Others are in worse shape. The deformed structure of monetary union has had the effect of leveraging relative supremacy. Germany gained eurozone competitiveness in the early 2000s through an "internal devaluation". It compressed real wages through the Hartz IV reforms.
Once southern Europe had slipped behind within the closed deflationary structure of the euro, the only way to claw back ground was to carry out their own internal devaluations, a near impossible task against the German anchor. The effect of hairshirt policies in so many countries at once was to tip the whole system into a contractionary vortex.
Merkel did not create this structure but she has never questioned it either, or explained to the German people why it has to change. Her government imposed austerity overkill on Club Med through its control over the key bodies in the EU apparatus. The burden of adjustment fell on the debtor states, not the creditors. This cannot work.
She let the eurozone debt crisis (actually a capital flow crisis) fester for three years before contagion to the Italian and Spanish debt markets forced her hand in June 2012. Only then did she agree to let the European Central Bank assume its role as lender of last resort. It took direct intervention by Barack Obama to extract this concession.
Merkel then reneged on a summit deal for full banking union. The sovereign-bank "doom loop" remains in place and is even larger today.
She resisted the necessary move to fiscal union at every stage. When the pandemic hit she agreed to a one-off Recovery Fund that reverts to the status quo ante over time, heading off permanent debt mutualisation. In short, she has spent 16 years refusing to rebuild the euro on workable foundations. Her idea of fiscal union is fiscal surveillance: the Stability Pact, Two Pack, Six Pack, and the Fiscal Compact. She bequeaths a broken system to her successor.
This mismanagement of monetary union altered British perceptions of the EU before the Brexit Referendum. It also led to the migration of several hundred thousand economic refugees from Southern Europe, and displaced flows from Eastern Europe into the UK. This combined into a perfect storm with Merkel’s precipitous decision to go it alone in 2015 and open the floodgates from the Middle East, ignoring David Cameron’s counsel that the Syrian refugee crisis was best handled in the Levant.
By then, of course, the Chancellor had already sown the seeds of British exasperation. It began in earnest when she resuscitated the European Constitution – rebranded the Lisbon Treaty – after it had already been rejected by the French and Dutch people in referenda. Her motive was obvious. It increased the German voting weight in the EU institutions.
This was a legitimate step to reflect Germany’s increased population after East-West reunification. But it also changed the EU’s character. Germany was no longer primus inter pares in an intergovernmental confederacy. It became primus sine pares in a proto-federation. Chalk and cheese.
France strangely allowed this loss of sacred parity to slip through. Nicholas Sarkozy was fobbed off with a few baubles. Tony Blair pretended it was just a cleaning-up exercise. The treaty was rammed through the EU Council by executive fiat. Nobody wanted to face voters again. Only the Irish were given a referendum. When they voted no, they had their feet held to the fire, and were made to vote again.
Merkel’s Lisbon Treaty was a watershed moment. It is one thing to advance the project by the Monnet method of stealth, it is another to do so once major proposals have been explicitly rejected by electorates. It further undermined the EU’s legitimacy among a coterie of British politicians, commentators, and financiers, and these people would later matter.
The treaty gave the European Court of Justice jurisdiction over all areas of EU law for the first time, upgrading it from an economic tribunal into a supreme court. The Charter of Fundamental Rights became legally binding. The ECJ suddenly acquired the means to rule on anything. It has since used that power expansively, as the German constitutional court, ironically, protests with irritation.
The Common Law protocol in the treaty exempting British courts from such encroachment was ignored before the ink was dry. The European Court began to strike down British laws on criminal procedure or data sharing with the US intelligence agencies. Another slice of influential British opinion peeled away.
Chancellor Merkel persisted. She circumvented a British veto of the Fiscal Compact, ramming through the treaty by other means, and visibly isolating the Prime Minister. All Britain had asked for was a safeguard clause for the City.
She installed ultra-integrationist Jean-Claude Juncker as Commission chief against British objections. This violated the Brussels convention that no major state is ever overruled on this key post. She refused a compromise despite warnings from David Cameron that a taste of Junckerism would further erode British consent for the EU, as proved to be the case.
If it is in Germany’s national interest to keep the UK tied deeply into the European system – and few Germans dispute that – one can hardly argue that she made a good fist of it. She meddled enough with the constitutional machinery of Europe to irritate the British, but not enough to sort out the EU’s real problems or to make monetary union fit for purpose.
"Mutti" is an admirable person and a canny, tactical politician but she will leave a set of unstable equilibria, a polite way of saying a trail of wreckage. If Laschet is the continuity candidate, Europe needs help.
69witkin
>65 bookish_elf: Here I can perhaps tell again specifically that I had bought in the sale books including express delivery for 192 euros and then had to pay in the course of delivery by DHL about 27 euros extra. However, I was able to do this via paypal, which ran pretty smoothly as a result. The place of delivery was Germany. I hope the information is useful for you.
70DMulvee
There are rumours the U.K. budget will contain a 2% tax in all internet sales in the U.K. Only speculation at the moment, but a 2% rise in cost to U.K. resident not laid by those abroad, would allow those facing new tariffs to feel (very slightly) less hard done by
71LesMiserables
>68 English-bookseller:
Intelligent article, well argued.
Intelligent article, well argued.
72CarltonC
>68 English-bookseller: Thanks for this, which is very interestingly argued. I too voted remain in the referendum.
73TheEconomist
>55 SF-72: I'm English, and I could not agree with you more.
As soon as our personal circumstances allow, my wife and I plan to move to Scotland, which we predict will be independent within the next ten years, and will rejoin the EU as soon as possible.
We simply do not wish to live in England any more.
As soon as our personal circumstances allow, my wife and I plan to move to Scotland, which we predict will be independent within the next ten years, and will rejoin the EU as soon as possible.
We simply do not wish to live in England any more.
74folio_books
>73 TheEconomist: We simply do not wish to live in England any more.
I have a great deal of sympathy with that view. It's becoming like Trump's America. The US finally saw sense which nourishes my hope that one day, in the not-too-distant future, so will we.
I have a great deal of sympathy with that view. It's becoming like Trump's America. The US finally saw sense which nourishes my hope that one day, in the not-too-distant future, so will we.
75Willoyd
>73 TheEconomist:
Us too, although rather than not wishing to live in England any more, we have no wish to continue living in this elective dictatorship - this lot is not even competent. My brother has ditched his British passport and taken out Irish citizenship (by dint of residence and marriage); he got out at the right time .
Us too, although rather than not wishing to live in England any more, we have no wish to continue living in this elective dictatorship - this lot is not even competent. My brother has ditched his British passport and taken out Irish citizenship (by dint of residence and marriage); he got out at the right time .
76boldface
>73 TheEconomist:
>74 folio_books:
>75 Willoyd:
I may have to move north as weel, before Boris rebuilds Hadrian's Wall and re-fortifies Berwick, allowing only COVID-positive travellers to return to England unhindered.
>74 folio_books:
>75 Willoyd:
I may have to move north as weel, before Boris rebuilds Hadrian's Wall and re-fortifies Berwick, allowing only COVID-positive travellers to return to England unhindered.
77capiri
Today I received my order in EU.
I had to pay approx 35% of the total order costs in custom fees (the order was not big luckily).
If Folio expects customers to absorb the customs fees in full I am afraid this will be my last order.
I had to pay approx 35% of the total order costs in custom fees (the order was not big luckily).
If Folio expects customers to absorb the customs fees in full I am afraid this will be my last order.
78sekhmet0108
>77 capiri: if you don't mind answering, are you by any chance in Germany?
79Uppernorwood
>77 capiri: Folio’s profit margin is almost certainly less than 35% so they can’t absorb them, even if they wanted to.
80SebRinelli
>78 sekhmet0108: I am in Germany and the issue is that carriers like UPS, DHL, etc. add a handling fee of around 20€ to the 7% VAT.
81English-bookseller
>76 boldface:
You might before you leave England wish to check where the English-Scottish border can be found.
Hadrian's wall does not delineate the frontier.
Instead have a look at moving north of the River Tweed
You might before you leave England wish to check where the English-Scottish border can be found.
Hadrian's wall does not delineate the frontier.
Instead have a look at moving north of the River Tweed
83sekhmet0108
>80 SebRinelli: And could you please tell me when one has to pay this customs plus "handling fee"? Before receiving the parcel or after?(This is with standard shipping, not Express).
84SebRinelli
>83 sekhmet0108: You pay it directly to the shipping company either before (i.e through the shipping company‘s website) or upon delivery (cash to the deliveryman). These additional costs do not appear on Folio‘s website.
Here are some more information in German:
https://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Postsendungen-Internetbestellungen/Sendung...
Here are some more information in German:
https://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Postsendungen-Internetbestellungen/Sendung...
85Mujaddadi
>84 SebRinelli: I only had to pay 10% VAT in Finland. DHL was asking 20 EUR to clear the shipment but I decided to do it myself.
86LesMiserables
Very disappointing to see Englishmen spout apostacy for what I perceive to be mostly selfish and financially orientated reasons.
By all means, go north to my homeland where by your passage is currently open and free of restrictions due to the hisorical union of crowns.
But know that the country is in the clasp of a pseudo socialist party camouflaged in independence colours.
Ironically its designs are for immediate vassalage under Brussels which speaks volumes for its true goals are of not independence, but a federalist-socialist super state.
Whatever became of loyalty to mother country and love of culture?
Idiosyncratic identity is not anything other than the evolution of a cultural identity forged by our forebears over time and destiny.
I simply cannot understand this rudeness of patriotic abandonment. Travel yes; emigrate yes holiday yes. But to scorn and deride your heritage is treasonable.
By all means, go north to my homeland where by your passage is currently open and free of restrictions due to the hisorical union of crowns.
But know that the country is in the clasp of a pseudo socialist party camouflaged in independence colours.
Ironically its designs are for immediate vassalage under Brussels which speaks volumes for its true goals are of not independence, but a federalist-socialist super state.
Whatever became of loyalty to mother country and love of culture?
Idiosyncratic identity is not anything other than the evolution of a cultural identity forged by our forebears over time and destiny.
I simply cannot understand this rudeness of patriotic abandonment. Travel yes; emigrate yes holiday yes. But to scorn and deride your heritage is treasonable.
87AmsterdamTaff
>86 LesMiserables:
Patriotism is a mug's game. The smart individual chooses the best country for himself and his family. Britain (read England) as a country is in terminal decline, it is not surprising that people want out of that septic isle. I personally got out of the UK back in 2013 and it was the best decision I ever made.
p.s. why did this thread turn into a brexit argument, rather than simply discussing the practicalities of the new arrangement?
Patriotism is a mug's game. The smart individual chooses the best country for himself and his family. Britain (read England) as a country is in terminal decline, it is not surprising that people want out of that septic isle. I personally got out of the UK back in 2013 and it was the best decision I ever made.
p.s. why did this thread turn into a brexit argument, rather than simply discussing the practicalities of the new arrangement?
88DMulvee
>87 AmsterdamTaff:. Name calling is not allowed on librarything. Please change the word “septic”
89sekhmet0108
>87 AmsterdamTaff: Yeah, no namecalling. Maybe next time quote an entire article criticising a country and its leader to shreds. That's far more appropriate and also very much allowed. /s
90LesMiserables
>87 AmsterdamTaff:
So it comes down to choice? Ephialtes would be proud of such contempt for national fabric then. Is that fine?
So it comes down to choice? Ephialtes would be proud of such contempt for national fabric then. Is that fine?
91cronshaw
>88 DMulvee: I clutched my pearls at that point too. How dare anyone suggest that our immaculate sea-rinsed isle (even if momentarily lurching to the far-right just for the sheer hilarity of it) has a single germ clinging to any shore.
92AHub
>85 Mujaddadi: Hello, I've also had deliveries to Finland and with DHL's extra processing cost the amount on top of the initial purchase really smarted. Could tell me whether processing it yourself was easy to do?
93RogerBlake
>87 AmsterdamTaff: Patriotism is looking out for your country and the needs of your fellow countrymen, not just your own personal economic gain. Once people think that's a mug's game then there is really not much hope for the future ...
94English-bookseller
To get back on the specific topic of additional costs arising on books sold from the UK to the EU, EU buyers are faced with a higher cost (not because of tariffs as such) but because of a quirk in the UK's VAT legislation.
While the UK was a member of the EU there was a somewhat one-sided advantage for us whereby the UK had negotiated a relief from EU VAT directives in that we in the UK had 'zero-rating' on some socially useful goods, such as books.
A UK publisher such as The Folio Society and any UK bookseller would charge VAT on their sales but at the zero-rate. That meant that the final customer whether in the UK or elsewhere was not charged VAT. At the same time the UK publisher and any UK bookseller were still able to reclaim their total input tax as they were making taxable supplies (albeit at the zero-rate).
The VAT tax authorities in the EU now require VAT to be accounted for by the EU-based customer on any purchases from the UK of books.
This VAT charge does not benefit the UK, The Folio Society or any UK bookseller. Indeed it makes their books cost more to EU booklovers and may reduce demand for them.
There is a further knock-on cost to the EU book purchaser in this new situation as the EU tax authorities require this VAT on UK book purchases to be paid and they appear to have placed this responsibility on the third party delivery firms who charge the customer for the cost of collecting VAT.
I would expect the UK and the EU to enter into arrangements in due course which allow UK bookselling sites such as ABE Books (and possibly UK book publishers?) to charge VAT upfront on EU customers and this VAT would be remitted to the EU. In this situation EU customers would then escape being charged by delivery firms for VAT collection services.
Australian customers who buy books from ABE Books UK will be familiar with this sort of situation as ABE Books has entered into an agreement with the Australian tax authorities to collect GST (Goods and Services Tax) at source and which is passed onto Australia. The ABE Bookseller is given a GST paid reference to put on the outside packaging of the book order so that Australian Customs Authority can approve onward delivery to the book-buyer.
It is very early days in this Post-Brexit situation and I have no doubt various arrangements, concessions and reliefs will emerge in due course to simplify and ease trade between the UK and the EU.
The EU has an enormous overall trade surplus with the UK so it would be in the interests of the EU to make fairly rapid progress on these teething problems.
While the UK was a member of the EU there was a somewhat one-sided advantage for us whereby the UK had negotiated a relief from EU VAT directives in that we in the UK had 'zero-rating' on some socially useful goods, such as books.
A UK publisher such as The Folio Society and any UK bookseller would charge VAT on their sales but at the zero-rate. That meant that the final customer whether in the UK or elsewhere was not charged VAT. At the same time the UK publisher and any UK bookseller were still able to reclaim their total input tax as they were making taxable supplies (albeit at the zero-rate).
The VAT tax authorities in the EU now require VAT to be accounted for by the EU-based customer on any purchases from the UK of books.
This VAT charge does not benefit the UK, The Folio Society or any UK bookseller. Indeed it makes their books cost more to EU booklovers and may reduce demand for them.
There is a further knock-on cost to the EU book purchaser in this new situation as the EU tax authorities require this VAT on UK book purchases to be paid and they appear to have placed this responsibility on the third party delivery firms who charge the customer for the cost of collecting VAT.
I would expect the UK and the EU to enter into arrangements in due course which allow UK bookselling sites such as ABE Books (and possibly UK book publishers?) to charge VAT upfront on EU customers and this VAT would be remitted to the EU. In this situation EU customers would then escape being charged by delivery firms for VAT collection services.
Australian customers who buy books from ABE Books UK will be familiar with this sort of situation as ABE Books has entered into an agreement with the Australian tax authorities to collect GST (Goods and Services Tax) at source and which is passed onto Australia. The ABE Bookseller is given a GST paid reference to put on the outside packaging of the book order so that Australian Customs Authority can approve onward delivery to the book-buyer.
It is very early days in this Post-Brexit situation and I have no doubt various arrangements, concessions and reliefs will emerge in due course to simplify and ease trade between the UK and the EU.
The EU has an enormous overall trade surplus with the UK so it would be in the interests of the EU to make fairly rapid progress on these teething problems.
95LesMiserables
>93 RogerBlake: Agreed.
And at a fundamentally philological aspect, the outright despicable and self-centred focus on self-intetest at the expense of one's heritage, ancestry...the folks who brought you into being, the folks who passed you the torch...you turn your back on them, for or what (?) 40 pieces?
And at a fundamentally philological aspect, the outright despicable and self-centred focus on self-intetest at the expense of one's heritage, ancestry...the folks who brought you into being, the folks who passed you the torch...you turn your back on them, for or what (?) 40 pieces?
96N11284
>75 Willoyd:
And he's not alone. Between 2016 and 2020 some 360,000 people born in the UK have applied for Irish citizenship, over 89,000 in 2019 alone.
And he's not alone. Between 2016 and 2020 some 360,000 people born in the UK have applied for Irish citizenship, over 89,000 in 2019 alone.
100AmsterdamTaff
>95 LesMiserables:
Ephialtes, Judas, got any more traitors you want to compare me to?
Ephialtes, Judas, got any more traitors you want to compare me to?
101TheEconomist
>86 LesMiserables: I don't want to get into an argument on this, and in any case I don't disagree with everything you say. I am not a patriot, and indeed I see patriotism as an outdated 20th-century concept.
In the 21st century, we should be taking a wider view of the world and our place within it, not retreating within the narrow borders of the country in which we happen to have been born. I can assure you that I would not be leaving England for personal financial reasons. My political and economical views are based on the ideals of sharing the world's wealth and resources rather more fairly than we do at present. I have nothing but admiration for the current leadership in Scotland, and the way the country is being run is one of the reasons I would prefer to live there rather than in England.
Back on topic, we should note that Brexit is not entirely to blame for the changes in VAT regulations on FS books being sent to EU countries; these changes were coming in anyway in 1 July this year. All Brexit has done (in effect) is to bring the changes forward six months. You would hope that the EU is developing processes that will make it reasonably easy for small to medium size businesses to remit VAT to each individual country - the current system (in which couriers collect and remit the taxes) is simply a licence to print money for those companies. Of course, if the UK were still a member of the EU, we would have some say in whether that was being done.....
(edited for typo)
In the 21st century, we should be taking a wider view of the world and our place within it, not retreating within the narrow borders of the country in which we happen to have been born. I can assure you that I would not be leaving England for personal financial reasons. My political and economical views are based on the ideals of sharing the world's wealth and resources rather more fairly than we do at present. I have nothing but admiration for the current leadership in Scotland, and the way the country is being run is one of the reasons I would prefer to live there rather than in England.
Back on topic, we should note that Brexit is not entirely to blame for the changes in VAT regulations on FS books being sent to EU countries; these changes were coming in anyway in 1 July this year. All Brexit has done (in effect) is to bring the changes forward six months. You would hope that the EU is developing processes that will make it reasonably easy for small to medium size businesses to remit VAT to each individual country - the current system (in which couriers collect and remit the taxes) is simply a licence to print money for those companies. Of course, if the UK were still a member of the EU, we would have some say in whether that was being done.....
(edited for typo)
102AmsterdamTaff
>101 TheEconomist:
VAT is only part of the issue though. At least in the Netherlands there is also the need to pay import duties on purchases of more than 150 EUR. I don't think those import duties are going away any time soon.
edit: actually for books those import duties are luckily zero, so the cost seems mainly to be 9% VAT instead of 0% in the UK, unless I'm missing something.
edit 2: oh and of course the handling costs which seem to be around 10-20 eur.
VAT is only part of the issue though. At least in the Netherlands there is also the need to pay import duties on purchases of more than 150 EUR. I don't think those import duties are going away any time soon.
edit: actually for books those import duties are luckily zero, so the cost seems mainly to be 9% VAT instead of 0% in the UK, unless I'm missing something.
edit 2: oh and of course the handling costs which seem to be around 10-20 eur.
103English-bookseller
>101 TheEconomist: You write: 'I have nothing but admiration for the current leadership in Scotland, and the way the country is being run is one of the reasons I would prefer to live there rather than in England'.
The view down south in England is that there not much to choose between the performance of the Scottish versus UK governments on the issue of covid. Both made bad decisions on moving NHS patients to care homes. Possibly London deserves a higher overall mark as they have performed well on acquiring vaccines. The UK total of vaccinations is more than that of the EU put together.
On other issues, such as Education, the English have outperformed Scotland.
You are aware that some senior personnel in the SNP will be having to deal with Alex Salmond's accusations possibly in Court?
The view down south in England is that there not much to choose between the performance of the Scottish versus UK governments on the issue of covid. Both made bad decisions on moving NHS patients to care homes. Possibly London deserves a higher overall mark as they have performed well on acquiring vaccines. The UK total of vaccinations is more than that of the EU put together.
On other issues, such as Education, the English have outperformed Scotland.
You are aware that some senior personnel in the SNP will be having to deal with Alex Salmond's accusations possibly in Court?
104AmsterdamTaff
>103 English-bookseller:
It's not true. Compare z-scores here:
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
England clearly have more excess deaths.
It's not true. Compare z-scores here:
https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps
England clearly have more excess deaths.
105cronshaw
>103 English-bookseller: The view down south in England is that there not much to choose between the performance of the Scottish versus UK governments on the issue of covid.
Please refrain from projecting your personal view on to people in England in general. The overwhelming majority of people I know, down south in England, even among those inclined to support the Conservative Party, regard the Scottish government as having undertaken a considerably more intelligent and effective approach with respect to the current pandemic and lockdowns than Boris Johnson's government. Admittedly, that's not difficult.
Please refrain from projecting your personal view on to people in England in general. The overwhelming majority of people I know, down south in England, even among those inclined to support the Conservative Party, regard the Scottish government as having undertaken a considerably more intelligent and effective approach with respect to the current pandemic and lockdowns than Boris Johnson's government. Admittedly, that's not difficult.
106DMulvee
Scotland and England have almost identical deaths per 100,000 from Coronavirus.
Not sure what the link above is referring to, this story is from earlier this week:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-52214177
Vaccinations have been going at a quicker pace in England 9.7% v 7.5% in Scotland, however Sturgeon claimed this is because they are focussing more on care homes which are slower to do, this is plausible so difficult to draw much conclusion here
Drug deaths in Scotland are still rising certainly are far worse than England
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-55184961
Education is going badly with the SNP in Scotland, as the Pisa tables show a widening gap with England https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855
The SNP was spending about 9% more than their income before Coronavirus hit. At some point either taxes have to rise, or spending cut. I think that the SNP had been winning the PR war but as a party governing a country it was difficult to argue their country was being run better than in England
Not sure what the link above is referring to, this story is from earlier this week:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-52214177
Vaccinations have been going at a quicker pace in England 9.7% v 7.5% in Scotland, however Sturgeon claimed this is because they are focussing more on care homes which are slower to do, this is plausible so difficult to draw much conclusion here
Drug deaths in Scotland are still rising certainly are far worse than England
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-scotland-55184961
Education is going badly with the SNP in Scotland, as the Pisa tables show a widening gap with England https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-50642855
The SNP was spending about 9% more than their income before Coronavirus hit. At some point either taxes have to rise, or spending cut. I think that the SNP had been winning the PR war but as a party governing a country it was difficult to argue their country was being run better than in England
107AmsterdamTaff
>106 DMulvee:
Again - simply not true.
Just scroll to the bottom
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
Again - simply not true.
Just scroll to the bottom
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths
108RogerBlake
Viestin kirjoittaja on poistanut viestin.
109Juniper_tree
I can imagine the Folio Society doing something like the below and following the (un)official government advice and laying off staff in the UK to set up a subsidiary in the EU to do all EU sales.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-govern...
This isn’t a teething problem, but a long term problem caused by a government promising things they (knew from the start that they) couldn’t deliver on.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/23/brexit-hit-firms-advised-govern...
This isn’t a teething problem, but a long term problem caused by a government promising things they (knew from the start that they) couldn’t deliver on.
110sekhmet0108
>109 Juniper_tree: That would be great news, if FS were to do that. Only taking a guess here, but the EU market can not be unsubstantial for FS, especially now, when they have a real chance of making huge profits.
I,myself, have only known of FS since 2019 Jan and have bought far too many books (around 30 in 2020 itself!), but with these extra charges, i plan to stop completely.
But if they could open up a warehouse in Spain or France, it would make things so much better.
I,myself, have only known of FS since 2019 Jan and have bought far too many books (around 30 in 2020 itself!), but with these extra charges, i plan to stop completely.
But if they could open up a warehouse in Spain or France, it would make things so much better.
111Mujaddadi
>92 AHub: It was very easy to do. DHL will send you a message that you want to clear the shipment yourself or DHL can do it. Just reply that you want to do it. They will send you all the shipment details that you need for clearance.
When you receive it, you can go to tulli.fi and start the clearance process. When you will add the tracking number, they will automatically fill many details in the from. When you submit the form, they will probably ask for order confirmation from Folio society. After that they will ask you to pay the VAT and then the DHL will receive the notification for it.
The whole process took 10 minutes. Just make sure to add the correct info.
When you receive it, you can go to tulli.fi and start the clearance process. When you will add the tracking number, they will automatically fill many details in the from. When you submit the form, they will probably ask for order confirmation from Folio society. After that they will ask you to pay the VAT and then the DHL will receive the notification for it.
The whole process took 10 minutes. Just make sure to add the correct info.
112DMulvee
>107 AmsterdamTaff: These statistics are not comparable because of the way different nations report. It states that.
Here is an article from today trying to compare the different nations:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.sundaypost.com/fp/n240121blavatnik/amp/
Here is an article from today trying to compare the different nations:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.sundaypost.com/fp/n240121blavatnik/amp/
113AmsterdamTaff
>112 DMulvee:
What? The article even quotes from the same government statistics that I linked (although like all good propaganda it tries to say a lower number for Scotland is not much different from a higher one for England).
I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to explain this stuff. If you want to keep on believing that England is doing great even when they have the highest excess deaths in Europe then go ahead.
Not gonna post any more on covid - let's get back to VAT etc
What? The article even quotes from the same government statistics that I linked (although like all good propaganda it tries to say a lower number for Scotland is not much different from a higher one for England).
I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to explain this stuff. If you want to keep on believing that England is doing great even when they have the highest excess deaths in Europe then go ahead.
Not gonna post any more on covid - let's get back to VAT etc
114AmsterdamTaff
>110 sekhmet0108:
They should probably do it in an EU country that also has zero-rate VAT on books, like Ireland or Belgium.
They should probably do it in an EU country that also has zero-rate VAT on books, like Ireland or Belgium.
115joco30
>114 AmsterdamTaff:
Belgium doesn't have zero-rate VAT on books. only a lower rate of 6%
Belgium doesn't have zero-rate VAT on books. only a lower rate of 6%
116AmsterdamTaff
>115 joco30:
ok, I guess I interpreted this wrong.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-004443_EN.html
Page 4 here shows VAT on books by country. Looks like Ireland would be best.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/t...
ok, I guess I interpreted this wrong.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-004443_EN.html
Page 4 here shows VAT on books by country. Looks like Ireland would be best.
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/resources/documents/t...
117joco30
>116 AmsterdamTaff: ok, I guess I interpreted this wrong.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-004443_EN.html
"...Zero rates are used in Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Sweden and the United Kingdom for various things, including supplies of printed books, booklets, newspapers, periodicals, brochures, catalogues and similar products. ..."
Yes, zero rates are used here in Belgium, but only for newspapers and weekly magazines that appear at least 48 times a year.
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2019-004443_EN.html
"...Zero rates are used in Belgium, Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Sweden and the United Kingdom for various things, including supplies of printed books, booklets, newspapers, periodicals, brochures, catalogues and similar products. ..."
Yes, zero rates are used here in Belgium, but only for newspapers and weekly magazines that appear at least 48 times a year.
118AmsterdamTaff
>117 joco30:
Yeah, that's what I realised when I re-read it. Pity though, choosing somewhere on the mainland would probably make more sense. But I think Ireland's zero VAT would matter more. I think VAT is not remitted inside EU so we would be able to buy books at zero VAT from a foliosociety.ie store theoretically.
Yeah, that's what I realised when I re-read it. Pity though, choosing somewhere on the mainland would probably make more sense. But I think Ireland's zero VAT would matter more. I think VAT is not remitted inside EU so we would be able to buy books at zero VAT from a foliosociety.ie store theoretically.
119tyreas
Pretty sure some of the books I bought were sent from Spain, do they have a warehouse there?
120Cat_of_Ulthar
Viestin kirjoittaja on poistanut viestin.
121Willoyd
>86 LesMiserables:
Very disappointing to see Englishmen spout apostacy for what I perceive to be mostly selfish and financially orientated reasons.....Whatever became of loyalty to mother country and love of culture?....But to scorn and deride your heritage is treasonable.
Just to clarify, I'm not 'English'. However, I do grant a degree of 'selfish' reasoning - if by that you mean personal benefit, but then I regard the vote to leave as driven primarily by selfishness. I doubt we would benefit financially by any move north, rather the opposite.
>97 LesMiserables:
Is that code for democracy but you lost?
No. It's a phrase originally used, I think, by Lord Hailsham to describe our rather peculiar constitution where the executive can totally dominate the legislature (and is in danger of dominating the judiciary too). In the case of Westminster, there's a double whammy, as the ruling party hasn't actually commanded a majority of the vote since WW2 (although the government did in 2010-15). I have long held to that description - our voting system hasn't been fit for purpose for decades - but, yes, the situation has got a whole lot worse as of late, not so much from Brexit itself (much as I abhor the decision and see it as an act of deluded self-harm, I respect the democratic vote), more the disaster that is the Johnson government.
Very disappointing to see Englishmen spout apostacy for what I perceive to be mostly selfish and financially orientated reasons.....Whatever became of loyalty to mother country and love of culture?....But to scorn and deride your heritage is treasonable.
Just to clarify, I'm not 'English'. However, I do grant a degree of 'selfish' reasoning - if by that you mean personal benefit, but then I regard the vote to leave as driven primarily by selfishness. I doubt we would benefit financially by any move north, rather the opposite.
>97 LesMiserables:
Is that code for democracy but you lost?
No. It's a phrase originally used, I think, by Lord Hailsham to describe our rather peculiar constitution where the executive can totally dominate the legislature (and is in danger of dominating the judiciary too). In the case of Westminster, there's a double whammy, as the ruling party hasn't actually commanded a majority of the vote since WW2 (although the government did in 2010-15). I have long held to that description - our voting system hasn't been fit for purpose for decades - but, yes, the situation has got a whole lot worse as of late, not so much from Brexit itself (much as I abhor the decision and see it as an act of deluded self-harm, I respect the democratic vote), more the disaster that is the Johnson government.
122Uppernorwood
Oh dear. If this thread is going to become about politics I’m going to go elsewhere.
There’s a right time and place for everything.
There’s a right time and place for everything.
123LesMiserables
>121 Willoyd: Well the will of the people in a non Roussean way, has spoken; voted for Brexit, and furthermore returned in weighty numbers, the party and ministers to deliver.
You may call it elective dictatorship, I'd call it honouring enfranchisement.
You may call it elective dictatorship, I'd call it honouring enfranchisement.
124AmsterdamTaff
>123 LesMiserables:
Alexis de Tocqueville warned against any decision "which bases its claim to rule upon numbers, not upon rightness or excellence".
Will of the people is a lazy excuse for such a devastatingly damaging decision. Especially when it should rather be termed, 'will of the terribly underinformed majority'
Alexis de Tocqueville warned against any decision "which bases its claim to rule upon numbers, not upon rightness or excellence".
Will of the people is a lazy excuse for such a devastatingly damaging decision. Especially when it should rather be termed, 'will of the terribly underinformed majority'
125cronshaw
>124 AmsterdamTaff: not only terribly under-informed majority but actually one a significant proportion of which was deliberately and illegally targeted with gross misinformation. When you research and learn the extent to which the Leave campaign went (and the millions of £s spent) illegally harvesting voter data and then targeting fake news ads through social media, particularly Facebook, at what they viewed as voters susceptible to their deliberate misinformation, you can't help but realise that the 2016 Brexit referendum was very far from any acceptable and meaningful form of democracy. A similar phenomenon appears to have occurred during the 2016 U.S. Presidential election campaign.
126DMulvee
>125 cronshaw: Something we can all agree on! The millions that were spent decided the result:
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-r...
https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/elections-and-r...
127AHub
>111 Mujaddadi: That's fantastic news - thank you very much!
128cronshaw
>126 DMulvee: Did you post the right link? I don't see any reference there to the illegal harvesting of voter data and the targeting of voters with deliberate misinformation.
129DMulvee
>128 cronshaw: On a serious note, this is something that could certainly damage democracy (and the faith in it) going forward.
However this didn’t really happen in this case (unlike the US election). There were claims from Channel 4 news, The Guardian and Carole Cadwalladr that it did but these weren’t substantiated:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-54457407
Interestingly this was in the news today with the information commissioner appearing before the select committee. The whistleblowers refused to speak to her (note I’m not claiming this means it didn’t happen but it does weaken the evidence that it did happen- apologies for the link here, perhaps not a website that can be considered unbiased however it is a video link of the highlights):
https://order-order.com/2021/01/26/information-commissioner-reveals-to-select-co...
Deliberate misinformation is harder to prove one way or the other. I would argue this didn’t happen, but those on the other side would suggest it did. Certainly I agree that “£350 million a week” was misleading, as the net figure is £250mn, however the EU effectively choose how to spend £100mn hence why I would argue it isn’t false.
However this didn’t really happen in this case (unlike the US election). There were claims from Channel 4 news, The Guardian and Carole Cadwalladr that it did but these weren’t substantiated:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-politics-54457407
Interestingly this was in the news today with the information commissioner appearing before the select committee. The whistleblowers refused to speak to her (note I’m not claiming this means it didn’t happen but it does weaken the evidence that it did happen- apologies for the link here, perhaps not a website that can be considered unbiased however it is a video link of the highlights):
https://order-order.com/2021/01/26/information-commissioner-reveals-to-select-co...
Deliberate misinformation is harder to prove one way or the other. I would argue this didn’t happen, but those on the other side would suggest it did. Certainly I agree that “£350 million a week” was misleading, as the net figure is £250mn, however the EU effectively choose how to spend £100mn hence why I would argue it isn’t false.
130AmsterdamTaff
>129 DMulvee:
I really don't see the point of arguing about Brexit. Regardless of what each side wanted or got, it is a fait accompli. Now we have to deal with the fallout.
Does anyone know what it means for bringing your own goods? For example I have many folio books in my familial home - if I were to bring these to NL, would I have to pay VAT on them?
I really don't see the point of arguing about Brexit. Regardless of what each side wanted or got, it is a fait accompli. Now we have to deal with the fallout.
Does anyone know what it means for bringing your own goods? For example I have many folio books in my familial home - if I were to bring these to NL, would I have to pay VAT on them?
131cronshaw
>129 DMulvee: I'm sorry, you simply do not have the evidence to say 'this didn't really happen in this case'. On the contrary, the available evidence very much suggests that the illegal harvesting of voter information and subsequent voter targeting by the Leave campaign took place.
Your first link is irrelevant and proves nothing. The Leave campaign spent £2.7 million with AIQ, for social media advertising, a company closely related to Cambridge Analytica. This company and Cambridge Analytica belong to the same web of companies at the hub of which is a group called SCL. The former research director of SLC testified to a UK Parliamentary committee that AIQ had built a software engine specifically to target voters on behalf of Cambridge Analytica, and that this was filled with data harvested from Facebook. Though Cambridge Analytica claimed not to have had any involvement with the Leave campaign, Arron Banks, the billionaire supporter of UKIP and Leave.EU himself referred to Cambridge Analytica as 'compulsive liars' and tweeted, 'We have made no secret of working with Cambridge. We created a huge social media machine that took the message to voters'.
I do not intend to engage any further on this subject here, as, very regrettably, I do not see the current discussion as constructive.
Your first link is irrelevant and proves nothing. The Leave campaign spent £2.7 million with AIQ, for social media advertising, a company closely related to Cambridge Analytica. This company and Cambridge Analytica belong to the same web of companies at the hub of which is a group called SCL. The former research director of SLC testified to a UK Parliamentary committee that AIQ had built a software engine specifically to target voters on behalf of Cambridge Analytica, and that this was filled with data harvested from Facebook. Though Cambridge Analytica claimed not to have had any involvement with the Leave campaign, Arron Banks, the billionaire supporter of UKIP and Leave.EU himself referred to Cambridge Analytica as 'compulsive liars' and tweeted, 'We have made no secret of working with Cambridge. We created a huge social media machine that took the message to voters'.
I do not intend to engage any further on this subject here, as, very regrettably, I do not see the current discussion as constructive.
132ranbarnes
I don't want to wade into a Brexit argument, but I wonder if Folio is intending to update their systems for sales to the EU with VAT collected and remitted properly, rather than the so far chaotic state of affairs in cross border sales both ways as seen elsewhere. Let's hope.
133LesMiserables
>124 AmsterdamTaff:
Will if the people, or let's call it democracy, generally sits upon accepted legal and moral legislation. If not, revolution or insurrection closely follows.
Will if the people, or let's call it democracy, generally sits upon accepted legal and moral legislation. If not, revolution or insurrection closely follows.
134LesMiserables
>125 cronshaw:
Poppycock sir!
Having Auntie and the 'Despite Brexit' mantra ringing in every ear across the land, shows you how strong the root popularity of Brexit was and is, to reject the lefty mouthpiece that the BBC has become.
Poppycock sir!
Having Auntie and the 'Despite Brexit' mantra ringing in every ear across the land, shows you how strong the root popularity of Brexit was and is, to reject the lefty mouthpiece that the BBC has become.
135HarpsichordKnight
Considering that both the parties, the establishment as a whole, and BBC were definitely anti-Brexit,.I'd say Leave's better data game basically evened the playing field.
The truth is, however you slice it, a LOT of people genuinely wanted Brexit, and subsequent elections only proved that. I think the whole "false consciousness" idea, e.g that people didn't know what they were voting for and are too gullible, is ridiculous and patronising. If you have that little faith in your fellow citizens, you shouldn't support democracy in general.
That's not to say Brexit was a good idea, but if most of the country wanted extra control rather than extra money, it's a legitimate position.
The truth is, however you slice it, a LOT of people genuinely wanted Brexit, and subsequent elections only proved that. I think the whole "false consciousness" idea, e.g that people didn't know what they were voting for and are too gullible, is ridiculous and patronising. If you have that little faith in your fellow citizens, you shouldn't support democracy in general.
That's not to say Brexit was a good idea, but if most of the country wanted extra control rather than extra money, it's a legitimate position.
136Raenas
>135 HarpsichordKnight:
Most of the country was gaslighted into wanting Brexit. You just have to look at the fishermen and farmers who regret ever supporting it now. They trusted the false information they were given. They were told everything is going to be the same or better. In light of the truth, they would not have wanted it.
Brexit was a scam by the British 0.1% to avoid the EU tax avoidance and money laundering directive, reduce workers' rights and food standards, as well as watering down protection of environment. Supported by US healthcare firms in hopes of privatizing the NHS, and agriculture barons to sell their garbage to the UK. And any other global power with an interest in weakening the EU. The people who voted for it were just used once and now are thrown away.
Most of the country was gaslighted into wanting Brexit. You just have to look at the fishermen and farmers who regret ever supporting it now. They trusted the false information they were given. They were told everything is going to be the same or better. In light of the truth, they would not have wanted it.
Brexit was a scam by the British 0.1% to avoid the EU tax avoidance and money laundering directive, reduce workers' rights and food standards, as well as watering down protection of environment. Supported by US healthcare firms in hopes of privatizing the NHS, and agriculture barons to sell their garbage to the UK. And any other global power with an interest in weakening the EU. The people who voted for it were just used once and now are thrown away.
137HarpsichordKnight
>136 Raenas: It's literally just started, of course the papers are running all the stories of people who are unhappy with the initial challenges. Entertaining, but doesn't tell us much.
Let's see what farmers say in 10 years.
Let's see what farmers say in 10 years.
138AmsterdamTaff
>134 LesMiserables:
'Lefty Mouthpiece'?! You can not be serious.
The chairman Clementi has donated hundreds of thousands to the Tories and the director general Tim Davie stood as a Tory councilor and was chairman of his local Tory party.
'Lefty Mouthpiece'?! You can not be serious.
The chairman Clementi has donated hundreds of thousands to the Tories and the director general Tim Davie stood as a Tory councilor and was chairman of his local Tory party.
139Willoyd
>123 LesMiserables:
Well the will of the people in a non Roussean way, has spoken; voted for Brexit, and furthermore returned in weighty numbers, the party and ministers to deliver. You may call it elective dictatorship, I'd call it honouring enfranchisement.
I've not anywhere argued against the Brexit result. I think it was a massive mistake by an electorate that was fooled into it, but it was a a majority decision; only the future will prove me right or wrong on whether it was a mistake. My phrase 'elective dictatorship' has nothing to do with the Brexit decision per se, but everything to do with the way our country's government is elected and how the country is governed, not least the failure in our unwritten constitution to ensure both adequate separation of the branches of government, and an effective system of checks and balances. My view (long held) is that our constitution is woefully unfit for purpose, and that the cracks continue to widen. Indeed, I believe it's been at the root of much of the unrest in Britain that has been cleverly, and effectively, diverted against the EU. Populist governments need an enemy, and the EU was, and is, a useful tool in that regard.
As for weighty numbers, they were certainly more than any other single party, but they were still a minority. The majority voted against them.
>134 LesMiserables:
Lefty mouthpiece? Well, that's the perennial claim of the right. Equally those on the left perennially complain that the BBC is a Tory mouthpiece. My complaint is that BBC news doesn't properly hold either side to account, but that might just reflect my prejudices.
Well the will of the people in a non Roussean way, has spoken; voted for Brexit, and furthermore returned in weighty numbers, the party and ministers to deliver. You may call it elective dictatorship, I'd call it honouring enfranchisement.
I've not anywhere argued against the Brexit result. I think it was a massive mistake by an electorate that was fooled into it, but it was a a majority decision; only the future will prove me right or wrong on whether it was a mistake. My phrase 'elective dictatorship' has nothing to do with the Brexit decision per se, but everything to do with the way our country's government is elected and how the country is governed, not least the failure in our unwritten constitution to ensure both adequate separation of the branches of government, and an effective system of checks and balances. My view (long held) is that our constitution is woefully unfit for purpose, and that the cracks continue to widen. Indeed, I believe it's been at the root of much of the unrest in Britain that has been cleverly, and effectively, diverted against the EU. Populist governments need an enemy, and the EU was, and is, a useful tool in that regard.
As for weighty numbers, they were certainly more than any other single party, but they were still a minority. The majority voted against them.
>134 LesMiserables:
Lefty mouthpiece? Well, that's the perennial claim of the right. Equally those on the left perennially complain that the BBC is a Tory mouthpiece. My complaint is that BBC news doesn't properly hold either side to account, but that might just reflect my prejudices.
140Cat_of_Ulthar
>130 AmsterdamTaff:
'I really don't see the point of arguing about Brexit.'
You know, I keep falling into that trap. There's no point but we do it anyway.
The latest news was that the UK was going to be setting up warehouses in Holland because, well, we're such altruistic types that Brexit meant we were going to pay Holland to do our work for us? ;-)
'I really don't see the point of arguing about Brexit.'
You know, I keep falling into that trap. There's no point but we do it anyway.
The latest news was that the UK was going to be setting up warehouses in Holland because, well, we're such altruistic types that Brexit meant we were going to pay Holland to do our work for us? ;-)
141LesMiserables
>139 Willoyd: As for weighty numbers, they were certainly more than any other single party, but they were still a minority. The majority voted against them.
But not at the referendum. A clear majority.
But not at the referendum. A clear majority.
142Willoyd
>141 LesMiserables:
I don't dispute that (not exactly disputable after all!), as you'll see from my previous post. I read (both in the past and present!) your 'returned in weighty numbers, the party and ministers to deliver' as a reference to the subsequent general election. Certainly, that is what my use of 'elective dictatorship' was referring to.
I don't dispute that (not exactly disputable after all!), as you'll see from my previous post. I read (both in the past and present!) your 'returned in weighty numbers, the party and ministers to deliver' as a reference to the subsequent general election. Certainly, that is what my use of 'elective dictatorship' was referring to.
