Tutored read: Mansfield Park by Jane Austen

Mansfield Park by Jane Austen (1814)

Hello, all! Welcome to the tutored read of Jane Austen's Mansfield Park.

This was Austen's third novel, and an extremely different one from its immediate predecessor, Pride And Prejudice. While Mansfield Park's reputation has grown over last several decades, and it certainly has its passionate adherents, it is a novel that people have traditionally admired more than loved. In particular they seem to struggle to warm up to its heroine, Fanny Price.

Part of the problem is perhaps that Mansfield Park is thematically much closer to Sense And Sensibility than to Pride And Prejudice, in that it is not really a "romance" at all, although like all Austen's novels it tends to get classified as such; in fact, it is if anything anti-romantic. It is not a novel about love-and-marriage, but rather about personal integrity and responsibility, and the difficulties of remaining true to your own beliefs in the face of outside pressures and personal temptations.

For these reasons, I think it is very important that Mansfield Park be taken on its own terms, so that we can see what Austen was trying to do in the novel as a whole, and with respect to the character of Fanny.

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For the benefit of any newcomers, a tutored read differs from a group read in that it is led by the nominated "tutee", who sets the reading pace. There is the opportunity for detailed questions and answers about anything in the text. Everyone is welcome to participate, and more than welcome to ask questions of their own. However, we request that (i) no-one posts about anything in the novel that occurs beyond where the tutee is up to, and (ii) that all posts are headed by a chapter number in bold. This is so that we can both navigate, and avoid the possibility of spoilers.

So who's in?? :)

I am! I haven't decided whether I'll read along or not, but MP is my favorite Jane Austen, so I'm totally interested in what everyone has to say.

And I'm totally interested in hearing from people who rate MP as their favourite Austen! :)

I'm in!! Very excited about this - I have not read it before. And I think that my daughter Abby will be reading it, too.

Lovely, Mamie!

I am in. Who is the nominated tutee? I am assuming this works like past tutored reads where those of us who aren't the nominated tutee chime in during the intermission?

Welcome! Our main tutee will be Ilana (Smiler69), who led the previous tutored reads of Pride And Prejudice and Sense And Sensibility.

Yes, pretty much. If you have any questions or comments about the chapter that Ilana indicates she's up to, please feel free to add them. Otherwise, we will have regular intermissions to make sure everyone has had a chance to speak up, and for general discussion.

I'm in! I've just downloaded it. I'm particularly interested in this one because of the West Indian plantation connection, which fits with my reading about slavery. I keep seeing it mentioned in books about that subject.

>9 lyzard: Thanks for the explanation and for leading the tutored read!

I'm in!

I shall be following, I always learn from these tutored threads and group reads even for books I have read many, many times before.

I have never done a tutored read.... but have found difficulty reading Austen so I'm in.... sounds fun and helpful!

I'm in, too. I'm just finishing reading the archived thread for Pride and Prejudice - wonderful job!

I'm in, too! I've really enjoyed the previous ones.

Thanks for starting up this thread Liz!

  

I read Mansfield Park for the first time—actually listening to the audio edition narrated by the fantastic Juliet Stevenson (highly recommended)—back in 2011, and would gladly listen to it again this time, but I've since acquired the Everyman's Library edition, as I'm collecting those, and since it's much easier to take notes when reading a paper copy, that's the one I'll be following for the tutorial. For the purposes of using quotations on this thread though, I'll be using the Project Gutenberg online version so I can simply copy/paste sections to avoid all that typing.

I very much enjoyed MP the first time around, and admired Fanny Price for the way she stuck to her principles and wasn't swayed by false pretence. I recall being highly amused by Lady Bertram and her sister Mrs Norris, both hilariously insufferable ladies, if memory serves correctly. I was completely lost by all the references to theatre though and most of the references to social convention went over my head as well back then (that was before you came to my aid of course!). I look forward to plunging in again and rediscovering the novel all over again.

I won't get started today as my plate is already full, but will start either on Monday or Tuesday. I think I'll probably pace myself as I have before, at around one to three chapter per day, depending on how many notes and questions I have in any given section, and I'll be following the same format as I have in previous tutorials.

Welcome to all participants and lurkers!

This is on the Mansfield Park Wikipedia page and I thought was worth sharing.



Mansfield Park family tree Using PD-art portraits of unknown people of 1780-1810s

I'll be following. MP can't displace Persuasion or P&P in my heart, but it's solidly in third place. I came to a deeper appreciation of it after reading The Real Jane Austen: A Life in Small Things a few years ago--in fact, had to stop reading it in order to re-read MP on the spot.

I'm not going to reread Mansfield Park at this time as I'm waiting for the two annotated editions to be published (the dates keep getting pushed back). However, I'll pull out the copy I used when I studied MP at university. I remember making a lot of notes in the text, so I hope they still make sense.

MP was the second Austen I read, and where I learned how to read and love Austen (I'd read Emma years before and hated it). MP was my favourite for several years, but then I read Pride and Prejudice which now owns my heart. But MP is second, and I love it too.

>19 Marissa_Doyle: Marissa, welcome! You had recommended The Real Jane Austen on a previous tutorial thread, and I'd immediately put in on my wishlist and also requested the audiobook from the library. I'm pleased to say they've since acquired the title and I have it on standby. Joe and I (i.e. >16 jnwelch:) were just saying a short while ago on my thread we'd be reading that book very soon as well.

>20 Nickelini: Joyce, I kept putting off getting those annotated editions from Amazon when they were just $21 each, and now they've all gone up to $27, so of course I'm rather upset with myself as I could have gotten a 'free' book, more or less if I'd gotten the lot of them. Guess I'll just have to play the waiting game again and hope for the best.

As I'm rereading all the Austens in order, I do want to warn you that Emma will inevitably follow next, that is... whenever Liz if free to do that tutorial over again, since she did it once with Madeline on her thread before tutorial threads became a 'thing'.

I'm in. Glad to be following along.

ETA: I just downloaded the audio version narrated by Juliet Stevenson from Hoopla! I'll pick up a copy of the book from the library tomorrow.

I'll be lurking. MP is my favorite Austen novel.

Ilana - if you're doing Emma next that may just be the time for me to reread it. I suspect that I won't dislike it as much the second time around, and I have been meaning to get to it.

>5 lyzard: I like it because it's less romance-oriented, more serious-minded, and I like Fanny Price. With some of the other Austen novels, I want to smack the main characters and tell them to stop making such stupid, emotional decisions. They remind me of some girls from my 8th grade class who were just silly. Of course, while most girls I knew went through a "teen angst" phase in middle school, I went through a Stoic phase. So much less drama that way.

Goodness me, welcome---ALL of you! It's fabulous that we're putting together such a group!

I know we have some people here who are very knowledgeable about Mansfield Park, and I hope they will feel free to add comments at any time.

(Not talking about Emma yet...NOT!)

OK, I'm in. I've never read MP but I've read other Austen (S&S, P&P, E) and thoroughly enjoyed them. I've been wanting to move on and read the rest of her oeuvre and this is as good a place as any to start that quest!

I'm a day late, but I'm in. I have yet to do a tutored read or a group read, so am looking forward to it. (Thanks to kac522 to pointing me over here from another group.)

Do we have our reading assignment yet? Will all the instructions be posted here in this thread?

-Shawn

And welcome, Julia and Shawn!

Shawn, what will happen here is (put simply) that Ilana will begin to read her way through the book, posting comments and questions about the text as she goes, to which I will respond. These may be about the plot, or (for instance) requests for an explanation of social conventions at the time, or the use of language. There will also be general discussion about the novel as we go along.

For a tutored read, people are free to read at their own pace; we simply ask that comments are confined to the chapters under direct consideration. For example, if Ilana's first post covers Chapters 1 and 2, you can say anything you like about what happens in those chapters, but please don't mention anything that happens in Chapter 3. :)

The only other point to emphasise is---please ask about *anything* that you're not clear about. If you're wondering, someone else probably is too!

To see how this works, you might want to look at an earlier tutored read. For example, the one we did for Pride And Prejudice is here.

I'll be following along. Like Nickelini, I'm waiting for the Harvard Press annotated version of Mansfield Park to come out, so I'm not sure if I'll reread it right now. I've read it several times, though, so should be able to follow along with no problem. And knowing myself, I probably won't be able to resist rereading it now once the discussion starts!

I love all of Austen's novels, but when forced to rank them, I usually put Mansfield Park at the bottom, so I'll be interested to see if a more in depth reading and discussion will change my opinion.

I love all of Austen's novels, but when forced to rank them, I usually put Mansfield Park at the bottom, so I'll be interested to see if a more in depth reading and discussion will change my opinion.

It will be interesting. And I'm wondering if my opinion of it will do the opposite and go down. Maybe my love for Mansfield Park is all about the nostalgia of learning to read Austen-- seeing the free indirect discourse, learning that she's FUNNY!, and learning a little more of the context and nuances of her early 19th century world. I had missed all that with the first Austen I read (which, per post # 26 I'm not allowed to mention). I got that she was critiquing her society, but it just seemed like nothing happened, among other things. I totally didn't get that Austen was humorous then. So I'm interested to see if I still think so highly of MP.

Ooh, fun. I think Mansfield Park gets the best discussions of all Austen's novels. It's so divisive. One of the things I love about it is how it changes my opinion of certain characters every time I read it. That, and Mrs. Norris being the best worst character in all of Austen. :)

>17 Smiler69: I just listened to the Juliet Stevenson narration of Sense and Sensibility, which is my favorite of Austen's books. Stevenson did a fantastic job. It's tempting to buy her narration of Mansfield Park now that there's this tutored read. Either way, I'll be following along.

>33 The_Hibernator: Rachel, if you ask me, I'd say go ahead and buy anything and everything narrated by Juliet Stevenson, as I pretty much have, so better not ask! I'm a huge fan of hers because she's a truly gifted actress, and as such she truly makes me enjoy any book she narrates that much better.

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Great to see so many participants on this one. Welcome all!

Gives me a bit of performance anxiety knowing there will be so many people watching, but then again, I've been through this a few times already so I'll just go about it as I have before and trust all will go well. Will certainly be fun getting input from different parties.

>34 Smiler69: I just checked and WOW! That's a lot of books she's narrated. I think I might just start with Mansfield Park and see where that takes me. :)

I'll be following along, too. Currently, Mansfield Park is my favorite Jane Austen. Will love hearing opinions.

>35 The_Hibernator: I have all her Jane Austen books and I'm so annoyed that she hasn't done Pride and Prejudice.

>2 lyzard: I've come across from the Category Challenge group to follow along as we're also reading Mansfield Park this month. I know MP pretty well but it's been a long, long while since I studied it in depth at uni so I'm looking forward to reading along.

>37 CDVicarage: Me, too! That's the one I really WANT! Also I would like for her narration of Chocolat to be available in the US.

>35 The_Hibernator: Ilana is right, Rachel, you can't go wrong with Juliet Stevenson - she's fabulous!

I've read Mansfield Park, but I'm not sure if I've read it more than once. Instead of re-reading it, I'll be reading Edmund Bertram's Diary. I'll follow along here for reminders about MP. It will be interesting to see how much Amanda Grange's interpretation of the novel from Edmund's perspective differs from the consensus here.

I'll be following along too! Interesting to see what people's favorites are. Mansfield Park is tied with Emma for my middle spot--we will see where it winds up this time. P&P and Persuasion are my favorites, although not always in that order.

I've listened to Juliet Stevenson narrate North and South but I don't think I've ever listened to Austen via audiobook.

Extremely stressful day. I forgot to take care of paperwork summoning me to jury duty and have been running around frazzled all day. More of same tomorrow. I'll try to get started all the same, but may get delayed as far as actually getting my questions onto the thread by a day or two. Sorry about that everyone.

Yike, what a nightmare - good luck!

In that case, I might just make a few general remarks about the novel and how we might approach it.

Mansfield Park is a work that operates on a number of different levels, and both overall and in a number of specific sequences there is a symbolic intent in conjunction with the overt dramatic / plot meaning.

Mansfield Park itself, and the accompanying concept of "the house", are themselves symbolic of a larger meaning, the preservation of existing standards against the potential damage caused by corrupting forces (often the guise of "improvement" or "modernisation"). In this respect I find that Mansfield Park makes a fascinating double-bill with Persuasion, which makes essentially the opposite argument, that not all of the "old ways" were necessarily good and right and change can be a positive thing. However, we should note that these two novels were written on different sides of that major historical divide, the end of the Napoleonic Wars. In Mansfield Park, the defence of "the house" becomes a metaphor for a sense of England itself being under threat.

The other thing that is immediately striking is how from the absolute outset, page 1 in fact, Austen positions Mansfield Park as a kind of anti-Pride And Prejudice, offering this sad reality in opposition to her previous novel's famous opening sentence - no fairy-tales here!

Chapter 1

But there certainly are not so many men of large fortune in the world as there are pretty women to deserve them...

>43 lyzard: I read in Culture and Imperialism, by Edward Said that Mansfield Park is symbolic of the dangers / issues involved in imperialism (with talk of West Indies). What do you think?

It can be read like that, I guess. While I think we need to be careful about over-interpreting the West Indian material, I do think that part of Austen's scheme is to distinguish between the productive and the harmful in both external and internal terms: "the house" comes under attack from outside, but some of its own foundations are rotten. You could certainly interpret that in terms of a bigger picture of the functioning (or not) of imperialism.

#44 - Well, Edward Said is a lot smarter than I am, so it must be right. However, before I read Mansfield Park I was told that slavery was an important underthread (or something) in the book, and I'd just taken a course where we were talking about those sorts of stated-but-unstated details, so I tried to really watch for it in MP. Other than Sir Bertram going back and forth to Antigua, I really couldn't find any actual evidence in the text. I am open to be taught what I missed.

Yes, that's what I meant by suggesting that the West Indian stuff tends to be over-interpreted. We can bring to light how the properties were almost certainly run in 1811-1812, and where consequently the Bertram money comes from, but I think people get a little carried away with the conclusions they draw. I think we're on firmer ground interpreting Mansfield Park symbolically.

And we're off!

Chapters 1 to 3

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Chapter 1

1. "Miss Maria Ward, of Huntingdon, with only seven thousand pounds, had the good luck to captivate Sir Thomas Bertram, of Mansfield Park"
Why only seven thousand pounds!? Again, I never quite understand what sums are expected to be large enough for these sorts of arrangements.

2. "and her uncle, the lawyer, himself, allowed her to be at least three thousand pounds short of any equitable claim to it"
I don't understand this part.

3. "But Miss Frances married, in the common phrase, to disoblige her family"
Is there any hint here that she did this on purpose?

4. "but her husband's profession was such as no interest could reach"
What does this mean?

5. "or what did Sir Thomas think of Woolwich? or how could a boy be sent out to the East?"
What and where is in Woolwich? Were young boys sent out to the East? To India? Where else? To do what?

6. "Do not let us be frightened from a good deed by a trifle. Give a girl an education, and introduce her properly into the world, and ten to one but she has the means of settling well, without farther expense to anybody."
We've learned better in JA's first two books. Obviously HE doesn't know any better though! Or prefers to ignore the facts as regards Fanny!

7. "we must secure to the child, or consider ourselves engaged to secure to her hereafter, as circumstances may arise, the provision of a gentlewoman"
Is he contradicting himself with the above statement here? What provision would he be alluding to?

8. What is meant by "an income which they had never lived up to" as concerns the Norris household?



Chapter 2

General comments:

"Dear mama, only think, my cousin cannot put the map of Europe together—or my cousin cannot tell the principal rivers in Russia—
..."and of the Roman emperors as low as Severus; besides a great deal of the heathen mythology, and all the metals, semi-metals, planets, and distinguished philosophers."
..."Very true indeed, my dears, but you are blessed with wonderful memories, and your poor cousin has probably none at all."
...Or why some of us come out of school much smarter than others to this very day.

"though you know (owing to me) your papa and mama are so good as to bring her up with you"
Wonderful how JA keeps having Mrs. Norris show her true colours throughout!

"—on the contrary, it is much more desirable that there should be a difference."
Unbelievable that she should reiterate this point—and to the children no less!



Chapter 3

9. "The living was hereafter for Edmund....There was another family living actually held for Edmund; but though this circumstance had made the arrangement somewhat easier to Sir Thomas's conscience, he could not but feel it to be an act of injustice"
We've been over these 'living' situations for clergymen, but once again you'll have to explain this specific situation to me as I don't understand what is happening in this case.

"And am I never to live here again?"
"Never, my dear; but you are sure of a comfortable home. It can make very little difference to you, whether you are in one house or the other."
I'd say Lady Bertram is so insensitive that it's a wonder she is living and breathing at all.

10. What is meant by "was scarcely even seen in her offices" as regards Mrs Grant?

Whoo-hoo!! :)

Chapter 1

1. Seven thousand pounds in a lump sum, invested at around 3% (the standard government rate), would mean 210 pounds per year, which is only a very moderate income. She has made a better marriage than would be expected on the basis of what money she could bring to it. Of course these things were influenced by how much the other party had / needed, and we see that Sir Thomas wasn't fortune-hunting.

2. He uncle thinks that a ten thousand pound dowry (i.e. around 300 pounds per year) would be a figure more likely to be acceptable by your average baronet.

Again, we're underscoring the idea of marriage as a commercial transaction, with nothing mentioned of either party to it beside his title and property, and her fortune and pretty face.

3. It means she married to suit herself instead of trying to make "connections" or lift herself up the social scale, which would have advantages for her family.

It isn't "on purpose" so much as just not considering what they might want---hence the added rider about Frances not telling anyone until afterwards: she knows how they would have reacted.

We should note that the three Ward sisters make three different kinds of marriage---one based on money and a title, one based (presumably, since there seems no other reason) on a physical attraction, and one just for the sake of marrying. Only Frances, who has "disobliged her family", has married for anything other than material gain.

4. "Interest" means connections, influence. Because Mrs Price's husband is a marine, Sir Thomas has no way of helping him gain promotion, etc.

At this time, promotion in the military was usually either through literally buying a commission, or having someone call in a favour. Personal merit and ability had surprisingly little to do with it.

5. Woolwich was where a number of military training facilities were situated, so that indicates that a career along those lines was being suggested. Conversely, yes, "the East" meant India - boys were sent out to be apprenticed in business from quite an early age. This was when the East India Company effectively ruled large territories in India.

6. That's Mrs Norris speaking---and she certainly doesn't know any better! :)

7. ...and that is Sir Thomas speaking, obviously with a far better grasp of his real responsibilities.

8. It means they had never spent their entire income, but managed to make savings out of it every year.

Chapter 2

There's several important things we need to take away from all this.

This is the only one of Austen's novels where she spends time on her characters in their childhoods, although we learn details about her other heroines' young lives. Here she lays important groundwork for Fanny by showing how her early circumstances, including an abrupt and total shift in those circumstances, affect the development of her character.

More generally, we see the reality of being a "poor relation", and how rigid differences of class and position were maintained.

Conversely, we see very quickly exactly what is wrong with Maria and Julia's upbringing---not least that their parents don't take sufficient interest in their education. We see that (as with Mrs Bennet in Pride And Prejudice) the girls' mother has abrogated her responsibilities, leaving it to the governess Miss Lee and Aunt Norris to mould their characters.

However, Sir Thomas is also at fault here, which we should note. Sir Thomas plays a divided role in the novel, being both the symbol of what was right with the prevailing social system, but also an example of how that system could go wrong through neglect or a lack of watchfulness*. Sir Thomas allows himself to be satisfied with his daughters' superficial accomplishments and does not pay enough attention to their morals and behaviour. He has never taken the trouble to really know his children.

(*Watchfulness, perhaps above all else, is how Fanny plays her part in maintaining the correct standards.)

But the other point made here is how inadequate female education was, wherein the girls basically do nothing but memorise useless facts by rote.

And of course---the other other point to take away is that Aunt Norris is one of English literature's great monsters... :)

Chapter 3

9. Yes, on the back of our discussions during Pride And Prejudice, I was going to ask if everyone understood how "livings" worked?

A clergyman's living was a territory for which he had spiritual responsibility; it was also where he lived, and therefore it included a house of some kind, usually situated next to a church.

Livings were not controlled by the church, but were owned by wealthy families, who were said to have "the gift" of a living, meaning they could give it to whichever clergyman they liked. At this time, it was common for younger sons of the landed gentry to become clergymen not because they had a vocation, but because they knew there was a living in their family, and that it would be given to them. (Edmund is later accused of this.) Otherwise, the owners would "sell" the living to an outsider---accepting a lump sum, after which the clergyman got the income from the living. I say "sell" because the family retained the gift and would again select the next clergyman when it was necessary.

Also at this time, it was not uncommon for a clergyman to hold more than one living. Usually he would occupy one, and do the duties for that living, while hiring a curate to do the duties of the other. However, he would continue to receive most of the income for both---for example, he might occupy a living worth 500 pounds a year, while hiring a curate for about 80 pounds a year for a second living worth 250 pounds a year; he would pocket the difference and have a yearly income of 670 pounds.

(NB: arrangements of this kind were undone over the course of the 19th century, which was part of the church reform described in Anthony Trollope's Barchester novels.)

The Bertram family has two livings. One is Mansfield, the other is called Thornton Lacey. Initially Sir Thomas intends Edmund to have both of them. However, Tom gets into such terrible debt that when Mansfield becomes available at a time when Edmund is too young, and not yet in orders, Sir Thomas is forced to raise a lump sum by selling it to Dr Grant, instead of putting a temporary clergyman in there (as a kind of "placeholder") until Edmund is ready, as they intended. Because Dr Grant is a comparatively young man, it is likely to be many years before Mansfield becomes available again. Thus, Edmund loses the income that he would have had for those years, had he held Mansfield as planned from the time of his ordination.

(Hence Tom's hopeful prognostication of Dr Grant's early death!)

But at least Lady Bertram isn't actively malicious, unlike some people...

10. It means that Mrs Grant leaves all her domestic duties to her housekeeper, instead of doing them - or at least, overseeing them - herself: her "offices" would be the pantry, the storehouses, the dairy, the poultry-house, etc. "Women's business", in other words.

Phew! Nice start. :)

Does anyone else have any questions or comments at this point?

Hi,

While I understand the livings of the clergy as necessary for the story. I do have a question. Was the income for the clergyman basically just the tithes from the congregation, or was other money generated somehow?

-Shawn

There were various sources of income. In addition to tithes, there would be a glebe attached to the living, that is, a designated area of land intended to generate an income for the clergyman, either through direct cultivation or via rents by leasing to tenants. The size of the glebe would vary, consequently so would the return on the land.

In certain circumstances an income could also derive from an endowment to the church, meaning it would be paid through the relevant bishopric to the holder of the living, on top of any other source of revenue. This also varied, so all in all there were enormous discrepancies in incomes for clergymen (from around 100 pounds per year to 1000 pounds or more), who theoretically did approximately the same amount of work to earn their incomes.

Clergymen could also hold various administrative positions within the church, which would have a regular salary.

Marriage in the early 19th century:

Chapter 1

Miss Ward, at the end of half a dozen years, found herself obliged to be attached to the Rev. Mr Norris...

Chapter 3

Mrs Norris...consoled herself for the loss of her husband by considering that she could do very well without him...

Enjoying this so much! Can I just jump in with a list of resources . . . I really like to go through the essays published at JASNA (the Jane Austen Society of North America--is there a UK equivalent?). Here is a page with links to all sorts of interesting sounding essays. I'm off to explore . . .

http://www.jasna.org/agms/reading-lists/about-mp-reading.html

Great start! Thanks, Ilana and Liz. Aunt Norris is one of English literature's great monsters. I'm appreciating this more via re-reads and discussions like this than I did the first time around.

Very helpful on the livings of the clergy; I always wondered how exactly this worked.

>57 Nickelini: Thanks! I'm going to poke around, too.

>57 Nickelini: There's the Jane Austen Centre, which has an online magazine: http://www.janeausten.co.uk/ And the Republic of Pemberley as well: http://pemberley.com/

If Mrs Norris was such a great monster, what was her incentive to have Fanny adopted in the first place? What did she benefit? She doesn't seem to care if people think her heartless, since she openly acts as such. So what does she get other than people thinking she did something kind and her "duty" to help her needy sister?

#59 - Thanks!

>60 The_Hibernator: As I read her, Mrs. Norris seems very fond of doing good works when someone else actually foots the bill for them...so she can take credit for helping her sister without ever having to extend herself in any way.

>57 Nickelini:

Thanks, Joyce! Glad you're enjoying it. :)

>60 The_Hibernator: & >62 Marissa_Doyle:

Yes, I think the adoption was more about displaying her power to confer favours (albeit at someone else's expense) than a real act of kindness.

But we can make up our minds about Mrs Norris as we go on...

Chapters 4 to 6

***

Chapter 4

11. There is a mention of Lady Bertram "directing her letters". Did she not write them herself? Who would have written them for her?

12. (I wasn't numbering comments above, but I will now)
We are told Mrs Norris forces Lady Bertram to meet Mrs Rushworth, but further on we are told of Mrs Norris and Mrs Rushworth exchanging words, but hear nothing of Lady Bertram saying anything at all to the lady. I suppose this is completely in character; "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink" sort of thing?

13. "It was a connexion exactly of the right sort—in the same county, and the same interest"
What is meant by this?

14. "who chose to bring his mistress under his own roof"
Does this mean 'mistress' in our modern understanding of the word? I'm guessing yes... but it seems so forward for JA!

15. "Miss Crawford found a sister without preciseness"
What does this mean?



Chapter 5

16. "and their acquaintance soon promised as early an intimacy as good manners would warrant"
How quickly would such an intimacy be formed?

17. I'm confused by the standards of beauty for both women and men in the early 19th century. I thought women were expected to have clear, light skin, and stayed away from the sun to preserve their fair complexion, but Miss Crawford is considered beautiful with her "clear brown complexion". Also, why does JA insist so much on Henry Crawford being so plain at first?

18. "Mary, how shall we manage him?"
...
Look where I will, I see that it is so; and I feel that it must be so, when I consider that it is, of all transactions, the one in which people expect most from others, and are least honest themselves."
I'm confused by this exchange. I think Mary Crawford makes an interesting point, but I'm not sure what the brother and sister are getting at.

19. "Mr. Crawford's being his guest was an excuse for drinking claret every day.
Did he really need to have a male visitor to provide this excuse?

20. "it would bring his passion to an early proof" (about Tom Bertram going away to the races)
What does this mean?

21. Who is telling the Miss Anderson anecdote? Tom? I'm having trouble following who the speakers are as JA rarely identifies them clearly and have to reread often to figure this out. Do you have a helpful trick to help keep track of who is saying what?

22. What are we supposed to take away from the long discussion about girls being 'out' or not?



Chapter 6

23. Please explain about the 'upper' and 'bottom' ends of the table and placement of dinner guests in general.

24. What is a 'moor' park?

25. What are improvements 'in hand'? And what is this whole discussion telling us about the various characters?

26. "The truth is, that our inquiries were too direct; we sent a servant, we went ourselves: this will not do seventy miles from London; but this morning we heard of it in the right way. It was seen by some farmer, and he told the miller, and the miller told the butcher, and the butcher's son-in-law left word at the shop."
Why does the information need to go in this roundabout way? What is wrong with direct inquiries?

27. "Certainly, my home at my uncle's brought me acquainted with a circle of admirals. Of Rears and Vices I saw enough. Now do not be suspecting me of a pun, I entreat."
I get the sense that Miss Crawford is bringing attention to exactly what she did in fact very much intend for them to understand. Do I take it her life in the Admiral's home has turned her into a vulgar young lady? (How Shocking!) ;-)

Chapter 4

11. "Directing" means addressing. Writing letters is the one thing Lady Bertram does do for herself. Keeping up relationships via correspondence was viewed as woman's work and many of them spent a lot of time on it. Later we will find out that Lady Bertram is a much better correspondent than a conversationist (although her letters are still typical).

12. Quite right! There would have been a formal exchange of greetings, but beyond that Mrs Norris (both out of necessity and habit) would have carried the weight of the conversation.

13. Supporters of the same political party. At this time, most people in Sir Thomas' and Mr Rushworth's situation, i.e. holders of large country estates, would have been Tories.

14. Things were a *lot* more open during the Regency period; people hear "19th century" and think "Victorianism" but there was a significant tightening up of the general moral code over the course of the century. At this time, rather than setting an example, Royalty and the aristocracy were flagrantly immoral and it was left to the landed gentry (i.e. the Bertrams---and the Austens, for that matter) to maintain standards.

Jane Austen was by no means the prim figure that people tend to imagine, but a product of the late 18th century, which was a plain-spoken, no-nonsense time. That said, Austen's novels generally support high moral standards, as we have seen before (and will see again...).

15. "Preciseness" in this context means inflexibility or a tendency to strict routine.

Chapter 4

Edmund on Mr Rushworth:

"If this man had not twelve thousand a year, he would be a very stupid fellow."

Chapter 5

16. Probably over a few weeks. There were strict rules about who could call, and how often, and how long those first calls should last, which would take up the first part of the acquaintance, but if they decided they liked each other they would drop some of the formality and begin to make longer calls more frequently.

17. Mary Crawford is a real brunette, with dark hair and eyes and olive skin. We also hear that's she's quite small. The Bertram sisters, since they like the contrast she makes, may be deduced to be fair-haired and taller. (Not too tall, though, or Henry Crawford's lack of height would be a problem. People generally were smaller / shorter than they are now; six feet in a man was relatively uncommon.)

There were fashions about female beauty as with anything else, though being blonde was supposed to make a girl seem more fragile and therefore more feminine. The only thing that was never fashionable was---red hair!! (Hello, Heather!!)

Then as now there was much less insistence upon a man's good looks, although (then as now) they were desirable if you could get them. But since we learn that Henry Crawford has a long train of female victims in his wake, obviously his attractions lie elsewhere. All the women find him plain until they get to know him, at which point they don't think so any more (except for Fanny). The way he talks - and flirts - makes up for the rest.

18. We have a three-way conversation here, first between Henry and Mrs Grant (who he addresses as "sister"), and then between Mrs Grant and Mary. The passage you mark is between Mary and Mrs Grant. Mrs Grant is deploring Henry's flirtatious ways and that he is never serious about a woman, Mary responds cynically that she supposes sooner or later Henry will be "taken in" enough to get married. In her view, marriages are usually the result of both parties being mistaken about the other. Her final point is that the way in which marriages are made, with both parties on the lookout for all they can get, while hiding their own imperfections, can only result in disappointment.

19. Since we learn that Dr Grant is quite a bon-vivant, it might be that Mrs Grant tries to restrict his drinking when they dine alone, but says nothing in front of guests.

20. Given Tom's passion for horse-racing, if he cuts his holiday short and comes home earlier than expected, it will be good evidence that he is interested in her. (He doesn't, because he's not, as Mary correctly concludes.)

21. Tom, yes. (Close reading is all I can advise!)

22. It's both telling us something about how society worked at the time, and quietly emphasising Fanny's anomalous position in the household. A girl of her age, in such a house, would be expected to have made her formal debut by her age, but no-one seems to have thought of it, leaving Fanny in a kind of social twilight zone. (Not being "out" means she would not be included in invitations for Maria and Julia, who are.) That someone as socially sharp as Henry Crawford is confused by her underscores this.

Chapter 6

23. The host sat at the head of the table, the hostess at the foot (or bottom). The most important female guests sat near the host, the most important male guests near the hostess. The other people were ranked in between, and seated man / woman if it could be arranged. At formal dinner parties these things were critical and women spent untold hours agonising over the "arrangement of the table", as it was called, but at an informal dinner in the country it was less important, although the "guests of honour" were still observed. In this case Mr Rushworth and Dr Grant would sit near Lady Bertram, while Mrs Grant and Mary would sit near Edmund (taking his father's place in Tom's absence).

24. A "moor park", more commonly spelled moorpark now, is a strain of apricot.

This little scene is one of Austen's symbolic touches: the fruit on Mrs Norris's tree looks good, but underneath it's worthless. This arrangement echoes Mrs Norris's inability to see anything wrong with Maria and Julia, who also "look good" but aren't all they should be inside, and in a larger sense Mansfield itself, which likewise has problems beneath its lovely exterior.

25. "In hand" means ongoing.

This passage is critical to the novel. Austen is describing something that did happen at this time in England: there was a craze for "improvement" which saw entire country estates re-worked, and often not for the better, with very old buildings being torn down or clumsily "modernised", and gardens being laid out according to strict rule, and lots of artificial touches like fake ruins or manufactured bodies of water---all done to blanket rule rather than working with the natural features, change for the sake of change. (Note that Mr Rushworth doesn't know what he wants, he just wants "improvements".)

There are of course arguments to be made either way about the reality of it, but in the context of the novel this is also symbolic, making a point about the maintenance of standards in the face of potential corruption, about solid reality versus artificial attractions---in other words, beware the "improvers"! Henry Crawford is a great "improver", always wanting things altered and in movement; we find out later that Mary thinks much the same way; although it always seems to be other people's property they have their eye on in this respect.

(Personally, I always wince along with Fanny during the discussion of the fate of Mr Rushworth's oak trees: "Repton, or anybody of that sort, would certainly have the avenue at Sotherton down..." Humphry Repton was the leading landscape designer at this time.)

26. Mary is exaggerating for effect. She's not used to country ways or the indirect channels of communication that exist, with messages being passed on as various people go about their business, and nothing much done in a hurry.

The other thing to note here is the exchange between Mary and Edmund about her inability to hire a cart. Edmund points out it's the height of harvest season, therefore all the district carts are in use and any other purpose has to wait. Mary's own remark, "Coming down here with the true London maxim, that everything is to be had with money...", is an example of a true word being spoken in jest, as that does indeed sum up much of her attitude to life. She can hardly believe that people have said "no" to her.

27. It's a joke she knows she shouldn't be making---although she has no idea how badly her audience will judge her for it.

Yes, both Crawfords have had a poor upbringing, and the result of that is one of the novel's subplots. They have been raised by an aunt and uncle who were miserably married and hated each other, which is where Mary in particular gets many of her ideas about marriage. Each of them has been spoiled - Henry by the Admiral, Mary by her aunt - and neither, as Fanny would put it, "thinks as they ought on serious subjects" (no religious teaching, in other words). As always, an outcome such as this is regarded as much worse - far more shocking - with respect to a woman than a man.

We have already touched upon the effect of Maria and Julia's inadequate education; the Crawfords are the same, only much worse, as they have not even had the example and framework provided by life at Mansfield Park. The long-term effects of a bad education are a frequent theme with Austen, and of course she means moral education as well as knowledge and accomplishments.

She can hardly believe that people have said "no" to her.

Indeed! I was always puzzled when I'd hear people say they preferred Mary Crawford to Fanny, or that Mary was apparently patterned on Jane Austen herself. Sure, Mary might be more fun at a party, but she's awfully self-focused and very blind to other people's concerns. I don't find her likeable.

It's both telling us something about how society worked at the time, and quietly emphasising Fanny's anomalous position in the household. A girl of her age, in such a house, would be expected to have made her formal debut by her age, but no-one seems to have thought of it, leaving Fanny in a kind of social twilight zone.

This attitude puzzled me. It makes me ask "what did they think was going to happen to her?" but I think my answer is "they just didn't think."

>69 Nickelini:

It seems from my other readings, that younger daughters, even if of an age to be out, would be held back until the older daughters are married (or at least engaged). I prefer not to judge the family too harshly for not having Fanny out in this case.

-Shawn

>69 Nickelini:

Mary is a very mixed character, and an interesting study from that point of view. Yes, she's fun, she's witty, she's clever - but then on the back of that she says something crass, and we see the way her mind works. She's a study in the relative weights given by society to superficial and intrinsic qualities.

>70 sdawson:

That's very true, though it wasn't uncommon in the country to have two sisters out at the same time, when there wasn't the expense of a London debut for the elder.

If Fanny were a third daughter of the house, when Maria got engaged you would expect a conversation along the lines of, "Well, Fanny, now we need to start thinking about your debut---" But of course that never happens. No-one thinks of that, least of all Fanny herself.

Re: Mary's Rears and Vices line, I always think that's a fascinating example of the authorial double standard. After all, it's Jane Austen making that joke - and we laugh - but then we say, "Ooh, Mary Crawford, how shocking!" :D

This kind of split-vision is also what applies to the way Austen uses the amateur theatricals in Mansfield Park, but we'll talk about that later.

>71 lyzard: You say "expense of a London debut" comparing it to that of the country. Is a debut not necessarily a presentation in court? Is that only only for the extra special debutantes? Would simply having a debut ball be enough?

Well, a court presentation would only be the start of a London debut, which would last the whole season: the presentation was just a way of announcing your presence and opening the right doors. You would need a court dress for that, of course. For a proper debut a girl needed an entirely new and expensive wardrobe, which would have to be frequently replenished as she would be in public perhaps five nights out of every seven. It would require the hiring of a house in London if the family didn't own one or have a cooperative relative or friend, plus all the extra servants needed to run it, including a maid up to "London standards". It would mean hosting parties and balls. It would need the hiring of carriages and horses.

And if a marriage didn't result immediately, and the family could afford it, it might have to be done all over again the next year, and the next... This is why girls who didn't marry were considered failures. It's also why there was such enormous pressure on the eldest daughter to "make a good marriage". Not only the outright expense, but the tacit expectation that her husband would carry at least some of the costs for the subsequent debuts of any younger sisters.

>57 Nickelini: & >59 Marissa_Doyle: Re. resources, I'd very much recommend What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew, which answers many of the kinds of questions being asked here. It explains things like rank, income, coming out - all kinds of things about the manners & customs of the time - and also has a glossary of terms. It's informative and also fun to read, esp. if you've read a lot of Regency/Victorian era books as it often uses passages from those books as examples.

>75 madhatter22: The problem with that book, though, is that it never differentiates between the Regency and Victorian periods...and things that were done in, say, the 1820s might well not have carried over into 1840. It's a good overview kind of book, but I don't recommend relying on it for details.

(I write books set in both periods, so I'm familiar with most of the secondary sources out there.)

>74 lyzard: Presentation at court was necessary if one wanted to be able to attend court events or parties hosted by royalty. Young women were presented on their first "coming out", again on their marriage, and again if their husband received a new honor (like inheriting a father's title) or if they remarried after their first husband's death.

Correct about that book, it has an unnerving tendency to treat "the 19th century" like an unchanging thing.

75 & 76 -- It's a good overview kind of book, but I don't recommend relying on it for details.

Yes, I found it fun and helpful when I first started reading 19th century literature. I haven't looked at my copy for years, but I haven't given it away yet either. I'll save it for my daughters in case they get into 19th c BritLit. My link in post 57 goes to peer reviewed academic essays, so info for those who want something more in depth.

Speaking of secondary sources, though--I just ordered Jenny Uglow's In These Times: Living in Britain through Napoleon's Wars 1793-1815 and can't wait to get my hands on it.

Mary Crawford is an interesting character. She doesn't seem to have much of a filter. I'm reading Robert Rodi's views on the book (he writes The Bitch in a Bonnet blog) alongside, and he sees Mary as a sort of Noël Coward character stuck in the Regency period. But he hates Fanny, and I like her.

As for Fanny's debut, would she want one? She'd be terrified. It would be an ordeal for everyone involved to throw any sort of event in her honor, no matter how small. She's an interesting blend of meekness and passive aggressivity, but it's explained by her childhood - imagine a shy ten year old with a high need for security being taken away from everything she knows, dumped into an unfamiliar and hostile world and told to be thankful all the time. It's no wonder she's incapable of voicing her own needs.

Agree to all comments re. What Jane Austen Ate (which wasn't specifically for you, Marissa - I just referenced your post since you'd also mentioned other resources) and I love the JASNA and J.A. Centre sites (hadn't heard of the Pemberley one though - good to know!) I just mentioned the book because as I said, it does give a good general idea of many concepts and can answer some of the basic questions. A lot of things will change between 1811 and 1890, but an earl still outranks a baron and a moor park is a still a moor park. :)

>69 Nickelini: I was always puzzled when I'd hear people say they preferred Mary Crawford to Fanny

I definitely felt that way the first time I read the book. I think Mary's cleverness and liveliness made her closer to my idea of an Austen heroine than priggish Fanny and overshadowed the fact that she was shallow and crass.

>80 RidgewayGirl: Ooh. Going to check out that blog. I've always found Mary to be strangely modern, which is one of the things I do like about her.

>67 lyzard: 'The only thing that was never fashionable was---red hair!! (Hello, Heather!!)'

:-D

>80 RidgewayGirl: I like Fanny too!

Fanny's personality seems similar to Jane Bennet's. It's not as noticeable in Jane because she fills a supporting role in P&P and Lizzie is so lively and outspoken. Fanny seems like an introvert to me - someone who watches others and often finds what's going on in her head more interesting than what's going on around her.

Carrie, she is an introvert. But she also has the habit of behaving like Eeyore when she's feeling ignored, which is much of the time. I agree, in a household where she was valued, she'd be a much nicer, easier person.

Fanny seems to be stuck in the no man's land of ladies' companion or governess, without actually being given that role.

>80 RidgewayGirl: I don't see Fanny as passive-aggressive so much as someone who's growing into herself and learning that she has opinions and standards, and that it's her job to live by them if she really believes in them...but darn, it's hard to do! In some ways, MP has a lot of classic YA themes--finding yourself and your place in the world.

I'm reading Robert Rodi's views on the book (he writes The Bitch in a Bonnet blog) alongside,

How did I forget about that! Off to pull my copy out of my TBR pile. I love BiaB.

>84 cbl_tn: If I were to compare Fanny to another Austen character it'd be Anne Elliot, in that I often want to shake them both and tell them to grow a pair. That's an interesting thought about Jane though - that she's what Fanny could've been like in other circumstances.

>88 madhatter22: Yes, I like the Fanny/Anne Elliot comparison too. We meet Anne when she's older, though, and I think she may have been more outgoing a decade earlier and not quite as much like Fanny as she grew to be as a spinster.

Glad to see so many interesting comments here. I'm afraid I've fallen behind on my reading a little these past couple of days, but I'll catch up again tomorrow and post some comments then.

>80 RidgewayGirl:

Re: Fanny's debut, the point is not what she wants (girls were rarely asked what they wanted!), but its absence being a measure of the Bertrams' view of her. At this stage she is still firmly in the position of "poor relation", not quasi-daughter of the house.

>89 cbl_tn:

All Austen's heroines respond realistically to their environments. Fanny and Anne, and Elinor Dashwood to an extent, are unappreciated in their homes and tend to retreat into themselves as a consequence. Fanny is the poor relation, Anne is the classic overlooked middle child, and Elinor is shown every day that her mother prefers Marianne.

Meanwhile, Emma Woodhouse rules the roost, Elizabeth Bennet is secure in the regard of her father, and Catherine Morland is one of a large happy family. All three are, conversely, much more outgoing, the former two self-confident.

Carrie also makes a cogent point that the nineteen-year-old Anne, who attracted Frederick Wentworth, was probably quite a different person from the twenty-eight-year-old Anne to whom we as readers are introduced. And from the details of her early childhood, Fanny herself was more lively and cheerful back then; it is coming to Mansfield Park that has quashed her.

I love Bitch in a Bonnet, too. I do think MP is the one he gets thrown off course on, a lot because of his excessive dislike of Fanny.

Interesting comparison of Anne and Fanny at younger ages. For Anne there's also an undercurrent of "what might have been" melancholy when we meet her at the older age.

I have hardly any questions for the next two chapters.

Chapters 7 & 8

***

Chapter 7

28. What is a tambour frame?

29. "she could look down the park, and command a view of the Parsonage and all its demesnes"
Is this the same as the French 'domaines'?



Chapter 8

30. "Now we are coming to the lodge-gates; but we have nearly a mile through the park still. It is not ugly, you see, at this end; there is some fine timber, but the situation of the house is dreadful. We go down hill to it for half a mile, and it is a pity, for it would not be an ill-looking place if it had a better approach."
Why is it considered a bad thing that the house is reached by going downhill?

Chapter 7

28. It's an embroidery frame on a stand, so that the sewer had both hands free.

29. The demesne is the land attached to a manor house.

"Manor house", traditionally, meant a house at the centre of a feudal settlement. The demesne was the land retained for the use of the manor house family, while the rest of the property would be worked by the peasants---and later, tenant farmers.

Chapter 8

30. It means he has no view from the house, and that it is hard to build an ornamental approach to the house---both of which were considered very important in this picturesque landscaping movement. Some property owners in Mr Rushworth's situation went so far as to demolish the original house and rebuild on a hill.

Before we go any further---is everyone clear on what a ha-ha is?

>94 lyzard: Some property owners in Mr Rushworth's situation went so far as to demolish the original house and rebuild on a hill.

Isn't that what they did with Brideshead, of Brideshead Revisited fame? I seem to recall that from my reading last month.

is everyone clear on what a ha-ha is?

I have a vague idea but I wouldn't mind a refresher. :-)

Ooh, I can't remember re: Brideshead---but I'm sure one of its many recent readers will be able to answer! :)

A ha-ha is an enclosing wall with a ditch or a lowered stretch of land on the far side of it. Originally ha-has were intended to keep livestock away from the main house and off the lawn, but within the landscaping movement they became a way of showing off a view.

On the left here we have an example of the practical kind of ha-ha, and on the right of the ornamental kind:

    

This is why Fanny warns Maria that she is in danger of "slipping into the ha-ha", meaning of falling down into the ditch.

...though of course it isn't Maria's physical danger that Fanny is really worried about. :)

I think the ha-ha was one of the reasons I fell in love with Mansfield Park--I knew about them from when I studied landscape design and history back in the 1990s and always dreamed of having one. I think this was the first one I encountered in literature.

>96 rosalita: Yes, you remembered correctly! Brideshead Castle was rebuilt in a different location using the stones of the original castle.

>97 lyzard: Those cows look like they see something extremely tasty on the other side of that ditch! What is the origin of the term "ha-ha", do you (or Joyce) know? I sometimes get mixed up on my silly architectural/landscape terms and confuse my ha-ha with my folly. :-)

>100 cbl_tn: Thanks, Carrie! I'm glad I remembered that right. If it had come up in a few weeks I would undoubtedly have already banished it from my brain.

>101 rosalita: I sometimes get mixed up on my silly architectural/landscape terms and confuse my ha-ha with my folly. :-)

He-he. ;-)

Supposedly the name replicates the exclamation of surprise from anyone coming across one (they're called "ah-ah" in some places, apparently!).

>103 lyzard: Maybe started as more of an "a-ha" and morphed into "ha-ha" over time. English is such a fluid language.

I'm confused by all this talk about ha-has. Glad to know what they are, but have you maybe skipped ahead of me??

I have skipped ahead a chapter or two - having a mental picture of a ha-ha is important for understanding the geography of some important scenes to follow, so I thought I would cheat a little. :)

Humph! It's ok because it's you, I suppose... ;-)

Do as I say, not as I do! :D

>108 lyzard: Ha ha!

>109 luvamystery65: :-)

Sorry, I keep skipping days, but I do want to have a decent amount of questions to post...

Chapters 9 to 12

***

Chapter 9

31. "Having visited many more rooms than could be supposed to be of any other use than to contribute to the window-tax"
What was this window tax? During what period was it in effect?

32. "we are coming to the chapel, which properly we ought to enter from above, and look down upon"
What does she mean by this?

33. "They have been buried, I suppose, in the parish church. There you must look for the banners and the achievements."
What are these?

34. When was James the Second's time?

35. "Before that period, as I understand, the pews were only wainscot; and there is some reason to think that the linings and cushions of the pulpit and family seat were only purple cloth"
What is a wainscot? I've read about wainscotting many times. What about purple cloth? Why 'only'?

36. What is a bowling-green? Another term I've come across many times and never quite understood.

37. "The lawn, bounded on each side by a high wall, contained beyond the first planted area a bowling-green, and beyond the bowling-green a long terrace walk, backed by iron palisades, and commanding a view over them into the tops of the trees of the wilderness immediately adjoining. It was a good spot for fault-finding."
Explain this please.



Chapter 10

38. "Another summer will hardly improve it to me." ... and "My feelings are not quite so evanescent, nor my memory of the past under such easy dominion as one finds to be the case with men of the world."
He's flirting with her, yes?

39. "'I cannot get out,' as the starling said."
This is a quote from...?

40. What does 'Hey-day!' mean?

41. What is an 'ague'? Another term for an illness I've never understood.

eta: I'm now clear on what a ha-ha is thanks to the pictures you posted, but the reference to the gate the Bertram sisters climb over and which Mr Rushworth goes back to the house to get the key for confused me the first time and this time too. Where is the gate placed? I'd almost need a little sketch of the scene this is all taking place in as I can't visualise any of it at all... does one exist somewhere?



Chapter 11

42. "and to think of their father in England again within a certain period, which these letters obliged them to do, was a most unwelcome exercise."
This is purely because of what transpires a little further, as concerns Miss Bertram's having to marry Mr Rushworth on her father's arrival, correct? No other reason at all?

43. "Oh! no doubt he is very sincere in preferring an income ready made, to the trouble of working for one; and has the best intentions of doing nothing all the rest of his days but eat, drink, and grow fat. It is indolence, Mr. Bertram, indeed. Indolence and love of ease; a want of all laudable ambition, of taste for good company, or of inclination to take the trouble of being agreeable, which make men clergymen. A clergyman has nothing to do but be slovenly and selfish—read the newspaper, watch the weather, and quarrel with his wife. His curate does all the work, and the business of his own life is to dine."
Why does Miss Crawford keep up this argument against the clergy and how lazy they are? What point is JA trying to make?

44. What is a glee?



Chapter 12

45. Why should Fanny expect Tom to ask her to dance to begin with? Then he does of course, but only to get out of an unpleasant obligation...

46. "Your mother is quite anxious about it, but cannot very well spare time to sit down herself, because of her fringe."
What is this?

Post 111, Q 41: the reference to the gate the Bertram sisters climb over and which Mr Rushworth goes back to the house to get the key for confused me the first time and this time too. Where is the gate placed? I'd almost need a little sketch of the scene this is all taking place in as I can't visualise any of it at all... does one exist somewhere?

I found this scene really confusing at first too and had to reread it. In fact, the first time I read it so incorrectly that when I finally pictured what was going on, it drastically changed my whole reading of the novel. I will pull out my book and see if I took any notes.

I have this illustration, which I don't think will solve anything for you (but it is lovely):

>111 Smiler69:

That's fine. We might have an Intermission after this batch of questions, though, because this is a very important phase of the novel and it's important everyone is on the same page with it.

>112 Nickelini:

Thanks, Joyce! What we need, of course, is an image 90 degrees to the right of that one. :)

Chapter 9

31. The window tax was effectively a tax upon the wealthier classes. There was no income tax at this time, so this was a way of raising government revenue without inquiring too closely into people's financial circumstances. Some properties and buildings were exempt, but basically big houses like Mr Rushworth's were required to pay taxes according to the number of glass windows, beyond a threshold number. The window tax was introduced in 1696 under William III, and it wasn't abolished until 1851, at which time formal income tax was being introduced.

32. That there is an entrance to the chapel from the upper floor of the house that presumably leads to a balcony giving a view of the entire structure.

33. From medieval times onwards members of prominent families were often buried in a crypt beneath their own chapel (as famous people are buried in Westminster Abbey), and they would then be memorialised and celebrated via plaques, carvings and other insignia in the chapel itself. Sotherton is too new a property for this to be the case; the Rushworths are presumably buried in the local churchyard like everyone else.

Note that Fanny is romanticising here, looking for something - not out of a novel, since she doesn't read novels - but out of poetry: what she says here, what she is looking for, is taken from the second canto of The Lay Of The Last Minstrel by Walter Scott. It's a subtle sign that there's more going on with her emotionally than usually appears on the surface.

Full many a scutcheon and banner riven,
Shook to the cold night-wind of heaven,
Around the screenëd altar's pale;
And there the dying lamps did burn,
Before thy low and lonely urn...

The moon-beam kiss'd the holy pane,
And threw on the pavement a bloody stain.
They sate them down on a marble stone,
(A Scottish monarch slept below;)...

"It was a night of woe and dread,
When Michael in the tomb I laid!
Strange sounds along the chancel pass'd,
The banners waved without a blast;''--

34. James II ruled from 1685 to 1688, at which point he was chased off the throne and out of England during the so-called "Glorious Revolution".

35. Generally speaking, wainscotting is wooden panelling that ran around a room, usually from floor height to between two and five feet off the ground; the term is used to distinguish panelling of high quality, usually of carved oak, often with very ornate patterns.

But here it is said "the pews were only wainscot". That means that they were made of pine (not oak) and were painted to resemble oak, "wainscot colour"---so not very rich or glamorous. This is also the point about "only" purple cloth. Presumably the cushions are now covered in velvet or something equally luxurious. In short, the chapel had a complete makeover and upgrade.

36. Lawn bowls was a very popular sport in England from the 15th century onwards and many country estates had an area of lawn that was laid out and flattened specifically for the game to be played. The grass would be kept short and smooth and there might be a low wall to keep the bowls and the "jack" or target enclosed.

37. Well, remember that supposedly they're all there to decide how Sotherton can be "improved". The first step in "improvement" was to work out what was wrong. Because the spot in question "command{s} a view over" the bowling-green, the terrace walk and the palisades, "into the tops of the trees of the wilderness immediately adjoining", it's a good place to stand and "fault-find".

We might think that it sounds like there is very little wrong with Sotherton!...but of course that never stopped an "improver"...

Chapter 10 (Part 1)

You understand now why I stopped to explain what a ha-ha is? :)

It can be difficult to understand what is going on here without an appreciation of the landscaping tendencies at this time. There is a wooded area beyond the house at Sotherton, but one that is kept for walks and sitting by laying down winding paths through it, by placing benches at spots with a view out of the wood, and by building a wall around the entire thing (which was an 18th century way of "taming" nature).

At the far end of the wood, furthest from the house, there is a significant gap in the wall. Part of the gap is made up of the ha-ha, and there is a seat placed here so that people can sit and admire the view beyond. On the other side of the ha-ha, the ground drops away, so you can't just climb over to continue your walk. Instead, next to the ha-ha, there is an iron gate that is usually kept locked; presumably on the far side of the gates there is a set of stairs leading down into the grounds.

So what happens here is that all the walkers come to the end of the line. Fanny sits down; Edmund and Mary walk off in a different direction; Maria, Crawford and Rushworth want to go on beyond the gate, but the gate is locked. Rushworth goes back to the house to get the key, leaving Maria alone with Crawford. Instead of waiting, the two of them pass through a gap between the ha-ha and the gates, slipping around the barrier and continuing on into the grounds.

This entire scene is dramatic in the way that builds the tensions between the characters, but it is also meant symbolically. In art, gates were often symbolic of virginity; in this case they also represent Maria's feeling of being trapped by her engagement. Crawford encouraging Maria to "evade" the gates, to work around the edge instead of waiting for Rushworth to open them "properly", suggests the illicit nature of their interaction.

Fanny, meanwhile, sees the meaning of all this and tries to discourage Maria - "You will hurt yourself, Miss Bertram," she cried; "you will certainly hurt yourself against those spikes; you will tear your gown; you will be in danger of slipping into the ha-ha. You had better not go." - not because she's actually worried about Maria's physical safety, but because she's very worried about her moral danger.

Later, Julia also chooses to slip around the gates...

Meanwhile, we should notice the language that Austen uses when describing Mary's walk with Edmund:

"...you do not consider how much we have wound about. We have taken such a very serpentine course"... By taking a circuitous route, and, as it appeared to her, very unreasonable direction to the knoll...

---suggesting that Mary is trying to lure Edmund away from the straight and narrow (or at least from his intention of becoming a clergyman), and that Fanny sees the implications of all that, too.

Chapter 10 (Part 2)

38. Very much so, yes. By the next summer Maria will be married, which hardly "improve" Sotherton in Crawford's opinion. But note that he denies being "a man of the world", that is, someone who embarks lightly upon love affairs.

39. Laurence Sterne, A Sentimental Journey Through France And Italy. In one famous passage the narrator comes across a starling in a cage that repeats over and over, "I cannot get out! I cannot get out!" This too speaks to Maria's feeling of being trapped.

40. It's an expression meaning, "Hang on!" or "Wait a minute!"

41. An illness where you alternate between fever and shivering, like malaria. So a particular kind of fever.

>115 lyzard: In art, gates were often symbolic of virginity; in this case they also represent Maria's feeling of being trapped by her engagement. Crawford encouraging Maria to "evade" the gates, to work around the edge instead of waiting for Rushworth to open them "properly", suggests the illicit nature of their interaction.

Ah-HA! :-)

Chapter 11

42. Mostly that, but also that they're had more freedom since he went away and look on him as a killjoy likely to spoil their fun.

43. There are a couple of different things to consider here---not least that Jane Austen's father was a clergyman, and that she herself was very religious. All of her good characters are genuine Christians, though she is rarely "loud" on this subject, rather it is taken for granted. Fanny and Edmund, more than any of Austen's other characters, are explicit about their faith.

However, this was a time of transition for the church, which is one reason for the inclusion of these passages.

As so often with Mary, she's half-right, half-wrong in what she is saying. The 18th century was a very secular time in England, and while there were plenty of clergymen, there wasn't much religion: most men going into the church did so purely in expectation of a comfortable income, and the clergymen of that time were notorious for drinking, hunting, gambling and generally neglecting their duties.

In response to this dereliction of duty, the Methodists and other dissenting factions became much more prominent in England, as people turned away from the Established Church and sought religion elsewhere. This prompted a call for reform towards the end of the 18th century and into the 19th, wherein the Established Church began pushing back and trying to clean up its act, culminating in the Oxford Movement of the 1840s (but that's another story!).

The other issue with the church at this time is that it was one of the very few professions considered suitable for "gentlemen", and that many young men became clergymen without any particular vocation, just because they didn't fancy the military or the law (which were really the only alternatives).

So Mary's criticisms aren't without some validity.

But at the same time, there were of course always clergymen who did enter the church out of a sense of vocation, and who did do their duty.

Clearly another consequence of Mary and Henry's upbringing is that they have no religious faith, and are used to hearing the church spoken of, and speaking of it themselves, disrespectfully.

It has never occurred to Mary that any young man would choose the church other than for a living and an income. So she is horrified when it is made clear to her that Edmund is about to take orders, not least because she has absolutely no intention of marrying a clergyman.

Part of the reason she then goes on about her negative opinion of the clergy is to try and make Edmund ashamed of his choice; the other is to make it clear to him that if he persists, he will have no chance with her.

However, in Mary's crack, "Every generation has its improvements", when Mrs Rushworth speaks of the family having given up general prayer, reveals her own lack of religious feeling, which is not something Edmund is likely to take lightly.

44. It's three or more people singing acapella together, usually with each of them taking a different part of the song, or singing in a different register.

Chapter 12

45. Because as the eldest son of the house, it is his duty to "look after" any girls without a partner; no-one else is likely to ask Fanny to dance.

46. Lady Bertram spends all her time doing completely pointless craft-work (Chapter 2: She was a woman who spent her days in sitting, nicely dressed, on a sofa, doing some long piece of needlework, of little use and no beauty...) Here, Mrs Norris is probably using Lady Bertram's making of a fringe - that is, putting a decorative edge on a piece of cloth or something similar - as an excuse to keep her out of the card game, because she's useless at cards.

Phew!

After all that, I am officially calling INTERMISSION and opening things up for some general comments.

How is everyone getting along with the book? Does anyone else have any further questions or comments for anything up to the end of Chapter 12?

>117 Smiler69:

:D

You're doing an amazing job as always, Liz. Very interesting things emerge with my silly little questions!

Not silly at all, on the contrary! And besides, as we've seen many times before, if you're wondering about a detail, almost certainly someone else is, too.

I am very much appreciating the context and background that you're providing, Liz. I got a late start but then raced past the commentary so I've put the book aside for a bit until you all catch back up and answer my questions. Which you always do, fancy that. :-)

I'm not finding a lot to like in Mary. Methinks she'd be better off skipping over to Brideshead and hooking up with Charles Ryder, who seems to share her anti-religion feelings much more closely than Edmund.

And speaking of Eddie, the only other comment I wanted to make is that I'm not finding many male characters here to really love. Edmund is clearly a good man but also dull as dishwater. The eldest son is a thoughtless rogue, Crawford is a hound, and Rushworth is the dimmest bulb in the chandelier. I don't have a clear enough sense of Dr. Grant to describe the ways in which he falls short but I'm sure he does. :-)

I've not read a ton of other Austen -- P&P, S&S, Emma -- but it seems there's usually at least one male character worth sighing over. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not feeling it this go-round. Not that it makes it a bad book, just that it stood out to me as not what I was expecting.

No, you wouldn't be. This why I compared it to Sense And Sensibility at the outset, though it's a much better written and deeper novel, and why I suggested that some people do struggle with it. Its concerns are far away from the marriage-plot and sigh-able men; it's a reflection upon where society stood at this time, and what its strengths and weaknesses were. And because it has this broader view of society, again like Sense And Sensibility, the characters are a lot more flawed and, perhaps, unsatisfactory. But they're not here to be romantic, they're here to be real.

That makes sense, and I wasn't meaning to imply that I dislike the book at all. I'm actually find all of that "big picture" view of the society of the time is fascinating. The ways in which Fanny is treated so differently than Maria and Julia is both horrifying and compelling. And Mrs. Norris badly needs to have her ears boxed, which I would gladly volunteer to do. :-)

I was just commenting on the one aspect that stood out to me as different than the limited experience I have with other Austen novels. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it!

I'm struck by the parallels between Fanny Price and Jane Eyre: poor relation kept in her place by an unpleasant female relative, not treated as an equal by the other children in the family. But Jane suffered more abuse and had more gumption. She was able to make her way in the world. Fanny is quieter, more passive and physically weak. I'm expecting her to have a happily ever after ending (haven't read this previously), but I wonder what her fate would have been otherwise. I can't see her doing anything but staying on as a companion to Lady Bertram.

Is the 'poor relation' theme common in literature of the time? Was it a common scenario in big houses?

I can't help but imagine Charlotte Bronte reading this novel and deciding to write a different protagonist with a bit of temper and pushback.

>124 rosalita: I think Edmund's dullness is a good thing. But then, I like "dull" men, both real and fictional. I'm not much of one for excitement. Or a social life.

>128 casvelyn: Given the opportunity to choose between dull but solid Edmund and exciting but irresponsible Tom, I'd take Edmund all day long, that's for sure. The Toms of the world are fun to read about but hell to live with.

I'm enjoying the tutored read and discussions, too. I did find another nice illustration of the gate. It apparently is by Charles E. Brock.

>127 streamsong:

Other than the poor relation aspect, I'm not sure we can make a fair comparison between the two for a variety of reasons. For one thing, Fanny is disadvantaged by occupying a much more realistic novel. :)

Regarding Fanny's health, from the details we learn of her childhood she was apparently perfectly healthy before she came to Mansfield Park; it's the enforced sedentary life, plus the emotional isolation, that seems to have done the damage.

As for poor relations generally, it was an extremely common social phenomenon, but in novels poor relations generally weren't the focus, probably because they rarely married. Countless English women throughout the 19th century lived exactly as Fanny does, being treated more as a servant than a member of the family and living off their relatives' charity. Remember that there was no way for a young woman of the middle and upper classes to earn a living, other than by becoming governesses if they were qualified (And governesses were a drug on the market).

Those who weren't qualified be a governess or who couldn't face it usually ended up like this, as a hanger-on in a larger, wealthier household. A lifetime of being, as you say, "a companion to Lady Bertram" or someone like her was an extremely common fate---and not just for poor relations but for daughters of wealthier families who didn't marry, who were expected to "help out" in the households of their more fortunate sisters, and were often passed around without having any say in it, let alone a life of their own. This is one reason why a lot of women married anyone they could; it almost had to be better than being "an old maid".

>128 casvelyn:

Edmund is sincere, steady and reliable; whether that makes him "dull" is a matter of opinion. He hasn't much of a sense of humour, though he appreciates it in others (and this is one of the things that draws him to Mary).

One of the things I find really interesting about Mansfield Park is Mary's interest in Edmund. There's no doubt at all it's genuine, unlike---well, let's say some other potential relationships in this book! Mary's capacity to appreciate Edmund is one of her positive qualities, and probably the most unexpected one; she never sets out to trap Tom, which is what you might anticipate from someone effectively cast in the role of "bad girl". But Austen is more complex than that. Mary is actually working against her own best interests most of the time, at least from a social / financial point of view.

>129 rosalita:

Thanks, Joe! That's a great drawing of Mr Rushworth, but it seems a bit "out" on the other details of the scene. Although perhaps Mr Rushworth staring in a puzzled way at a gate that doesn't seem to have a reason to exist is meant as a commentary on the character! :)

>131 lyzard: Edmund is sincere, steady and reliable...

Sounds like the perfect man to me.

ETA: Come to think of it, he seems a lot like my dad, brothers, and grandfathers. Hmmm...

chapter 9, Q 35 What about purple cloth? Why 'only'?

I have a note in the margin of my book that the cloth should have been red, which is more expensive due to the die required. This info would have come from my professor.

Interesting, thanks Joyce.

I'm reading Quo Vadis where purple is a sign of divinity, so my thoughts were with the cloth rather than the colour. :)

>131 lyzard: " For one thing, Fanny is disadvantaged by occupying a much more realistic novel. :)"

Which is exactly why Jane can turn down the marriage proposal from her steady, reliable, dull as ditchwater churchman cousin.

I married interesting. It didn't turn out well.

I wouldn't describe St John Rivers as "steady, reliable, dull" - on the contrary, he's a fanatic.

But this really isn't the place for that debate! :)

Chaper 9 Q 31 The window tax was effectively a tax upon the wealthier classes. There was no income tax at this time, so this was a way of raising government revenue without inquiring too closely into people's financial circumstances. Some properties and buildings were exempt, but basically big houses like Mr Rushworth's were required to pay taxes according to the number of glass windows, beyond a threshold number. The window tax was introduced in 1696 under William III, and it wasn't abolished until 1851, at which time formal income tax was being introduced.

I learned about this when studying Mansfield Park, and I also learned that some people closed in windows when they couldn't afford to pay the tax any longer. I've often seen buildings with bricked in windows in England, and often wondered if they were part of this, although I imagine that many of those buildings are newer than 1851 and are bricked up for other reasons.

C 9 Q 35.Generally speaking, wainscotting is wooden panelling that ran around a room, usually from floor height to between two and five feet off the ground; the term is used to distinguish panelling of high quality, usually of carved oak, often with very ornate patterns.

But here it is said "the pews were only wainscot". That means that they were made of pine (not oak) and were painted to resemble oak, "wainscot colour"---so not very rich or glamorous.

Here is a picture:

Now my question is how to pronounce it. Around my decorating circles (yes, I have such a thing) I've always heard it "wain-scot" (as in people from Scotland) but Marth Stewart says "wain-scoat", which I think sounds downright weird. But she is Martha Stewart.

>137 Nickelini:

Churches were exempt from the tax and so were work-buildings like dairies, but all houses with glass windows had to pay a base-tax, and beyond that a rate that depended on how many windows there were, with the tax rate rising with the number of windows---the more you had, the higher rate you paid. The tax started off being paid at ten windows or more, but in the second half of the 18th century the cut-off was dropped to seven windows. Presumably the bricking-up was to bring a house under the taxation threshold.

England has a fascinating history of indirect taxation. We also have the tax on hair powder, which proved highly influential on the fashions of the day. :)

>138 Nickelini:

"Wains-cot" is correct, I believe.

Post 115, Chapter 10 - (about the symbolism of the gate and the landscape in the Sotherton scene). I was going to say everything Liz said here was really great, brilliant even. And I will be adding notes to my copy of MP. But I had to laugh when I turned to that (heavily marked up) page and saw that I had written "symbolism of the gate/forbidden territory - seduction." My prof talked a lot about the various seductions in MP (more coming with the play chapter). I then remembered that I wrote my MP essay on the scene at Sotherton, so I've just pulled it out and see that it's titled "The Social Landscape of Sotherton in Jane Austen's Mansfield Park". Off to see what I wrote . . .

I wouldn't describe St John Rivers as "steady, reliable, dull" - on the contrary, he's a fanatic.

But this really isn't the place for that debate! :)

Oh, don't get me started! Maybe after we finish Austen we can do Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights

Churches were exempt from the tax . . . The tax started off being paid at ten windows or more, but in the second half of the 18th century the cut-off was dropped to seven windows. Presumably the bricking-up was to bring a house under the taxation threshold.

These sorts of details are the things I love to learn about when I read or study a novel. I guess I'm geeky, but it's just so interesting. And then when I go to England and see buildings like that and I think "hmmm, I know what that's about" while my family is obliviously doing something else. . . . such fun.

>140 Nickelini:

Thanks, Joyce, much appreciated! I'll be very interested to hear what you had to say.

>141 Nickelini:

YIKE!!

>142 Nickelini:

Oh, me too! And that's why I can do threads like this, I guess: I have a retentive memory for nerdy details. Don't ask me to remember anything important, but I can explain to you the significance of a throwaway remark in a two-hundred-year-old novel! :D

Regarding the window tax: I have a vague memory from my 1990s trip to Ireland that the tour guide explained that the reason Georgian buildings have shorter windows on the upper storeys was as part of an effort to evade or minimize the window tax (she implied that smaller windows accrued less tax). The only seeming confirmation of this I found on a website about the history of Georgian Dublin:

The children’s domain was the top floor of the house, with the nursery, governess’s quarters, and room in which the children would receive their lessons. You’ll notice this floor has unusually small windows. In the Georgian era, your property taxes were based on window size, so “unimportant” rooms (like those for the children) would get tiny windows so as to reduce the tax burden. This is where we get the term “daylight robbery.”
- See more at: http://www.reidsguides.com/destinations/europe/ireland/dublin/sights/number-29.h...

Would this have been the same in England, do you suppose?

The window tax wasn't imposed upon Ireland until 1799; in 1825 it was changed to a glass tax, and calculated not on the number of windows, but the weight of the glass, which would have led to a trend of smaller windows and thinner glass. But that was a Regency rather than a Georgian thing (or whatever we call the period between "Regency" and "Victorian"!). I never heard that the window tax was based on the size of the window per se.

Sounds like the guidebook maybe over-simplified the concept of a tax based on glass weight into being simply about size. And got the era wrong, to boot. Thanks for the clarification, Liz.

Being a killjoy: it's what I do! :)

>147 lyzard: I'd much rather know the truth even if it's not as exciting as the made-up story. Or I guess it's more accurate to say I want to know both. So you just keep right on sticking a knife in joy's chest, sister. ;-)

{*claps hands excitedly*}

For one, I'm finding the discussion on Mansfield Park excellent, and it's increasing my appreciation for a novel which I only just read for the first time a few months ago. And also - discussions on window taxes and similar minutiae of the novel are alarmingly fascinating :)

Georgian thing (or whatever we call the period between "Regency" and "Victorian"!)
then
And got the era wrong, to boot. Thanks for the clarification

Hmm, I think you're both right. Regency and Victorian are terms I've learned in history and literature, but Georgian is definitely a term from architecture and design.

When I studied Jane Austen (in particular, Mansfield Park), it was part of the "Romance" period, as my university was dividing English literature at the time, although few people lump Austen in with the Romantics. Wuthering Heights is more stereotypical "romantic era," but is chronologically Victorian. I think Austen is more Enlightenment than Romantic, myself. Is there such a thing as "Georgian" literature? Not sure, but I would expect it to be political. But Georgian architecture? All I can say is "lovely".

discussions on window taxes and similar minutiae of the novel are alarmingly fascinating :)?

Good to know I'm not the only geek on this thread.

Also here and happily enjoying all the discussion but not much to add.

Really enjoying everyone's contributions. I was rather hoping my question on the window tax would bring up all kinds of interesting tidbits.

Whenever you're ready Liz, I've read chapter 13 and taken LOTS of notes and have a load of questions for you on that one...

I'm enjoying the discussion too. Lots of things I thought I knew about regency period but when the qs came up I realized I didn't.

>150 evilmoose: & >155 charl08:

Welcome, Megan and Charlotte - very glad to have you join us!

>151 Nickelini:

Hmm, I think that came out wrong. I meant to point out that the alteration to the Irish window tax was definitely not Georgian, but it wasn't really Regency either - it happened in the "twilight zone" between the Regency and the Victorian periods.

Although - as far as terminology goes, the Georgian period technically runs from 1714 - 1830 and encompasses the Regency (1811 - 1820), if you use the strict definition of "four kings called George". In more common usage the Regency is generally taken to mark the start of a new era.

And yes, you're quite right, in terms of literature the Regency was the "Romantic" period. There isn't really such a thing as outright "Georgian" literature, but there were several distinct waves of writing during the 18th century, reflecting a social battle over the "correct" approach to life: the Age of Reason was overtaken by the movement of "sensibility", and analytical, unemotional non-fiction likewise gave way to works of high emotion and sentiment, including the Gothic novel. It was during this time, in the second half of the 18th century, that the novel emerged as the dominant form of popular writing, although it wasn't for another fifty years or so that the form really began to be taken seriously.

>154 Smiler69:

I think we're ready to start again, so I will call END OF INTERMISSION.

Have at it, Ilana!

>4 casvelyn: and >5 lyzard: - Mansfield Park is also my own favorite Jane Austen. Have been reading along, but maybe I'll get back to reading it.

I have not started the book yet... waiting until I finish to kill a mockingbird... I have found the thread very interesting and informative thus far and look forward to when I finally do read the story.... I will know so much going in :) thanks for this - especially since I am reading all of Austen's novels for the first time (actually listening, as I found that I can't read the stories but listening makes them enjoyable) - thanks for this thread and all the insightful knowledge of the times and the book itself!

Just covering one chapter today as I think you'll find I have lots of questions, some of which probably require quite a bit of explaining!

Chapter 13

47. "To be so near happiness, so near fame, so near the long paragraph in praise of the private theatricals at Ecclesford, the seat of the Right Hon. Lord Ravenshaw, in Cornwall, which would of course have immortalised the whole party for at least a twelvemonth!"
Is this a real place? Is it an actual theatre? Is Lord Ravenshaw a real person? Details please!

48. "The play had been Lovers' Vows, and Mr. Yates was to have been Count Cassel."
What play is this and who is the character he was meant to play?

49. "It is not worth complaining about; but to be sure the poor old dowager could not have died at a worse time; and it is impossible to help wishing that the news could have been suppressed for just the three days we wanted. It was but three days; and being only a grandmother, and all happening two hundred miles off, I think there would have been no great harm, and it was suggested, I know; but Lord Ravenshaw, who I suppose is one of the most correct men in England, would not hear of it."
I guess this is to show the low moral attitudes of the time, that our Mr Yates would express such a wish? But then are we to take his word that Lord Ravenshaw really is 'one of the most correct men in England'?

50. "An afterpiece instead of a comedy," said Mr. Bertram. "Lovers' Vows were at an end,

and Lord and Lady Ravenshaw left to act My Grandmother by themselves.
I don't understand either parts of this sentence.

51. "This, though the thought of the moment, did not end with the moment; for the inclination to act was awakened, and in no one more strongly than in him who was now master of the house; and who, having so much leisure as to make almost any novelty a certain good, had likewise such a degree of lively talents and comic taste, as were exactly adapted to the novelty of acting."
Why is acting described as a novelty? Is it a novelty to him, or was it a novelty at the time as a recreational activity for ladies and gentlemen?

52. "I could be fool enough at this moment to undertake any character that ever was written, from Shylock or Richard III down to the singing hero of a farce in his scarlet coat and cocked hat. I feel as if I could be anything or everything; as if I could rant and storm, or sigh or cut capers, in any tragedy or comedy in the English language."
Is he describing any play in particular with the 'scarlet coat and cocked hat? What does sighing and cutting papers refer to?

53. What kind of fabric is green baize?

54. "with only just a side wing or two run up, doors in flat, and three or four scenes to be let down"
What is a side wing 'run up', and 'doors in flat'? I take it he's suggesting far too many props from what follows (see next question).

55. "so as it be a German play, no matter what, with a good tricking, shifting afterpiece, and a figure-dance, and a hornpipe, and a song between the acts."
Why a 'German' play? 'Good tricking'? 'Shifting afterpiece'? 'Figure-dance'? Please explain these terms.

56. "and my father's room will be an excellent greenroom"
What is this?

57. "and it would be imprudent, I think, with regard to Maria, whose situation is a very delicate one, considering everything, extremely delicate."
I take it because she is engaged to be married, but why 'extemely delicate considering everything'?

58. "my name was Norval"
What can you tell us about this play?

59. "My father wished us, as schoolboys, to speak well, but he would never wish his grown-up daughters to be acting plays. His sense of decorum is strict."
I know from having read Jane Austen: A Life by Claire Tomalin that the Austens, including Jane, her brothers and sister Cassandra used to frequently put up plays in front of their family and neighbours and this in spite of the fact that their father was a rector. Why then would Sir Bertram object to his daughters acting in a play?

60. "Yes, the expense of such an undertaking would be prodigious! Perhaps it might cost a whole twenty pounds."
Tom is being ironic here, but wasn't £20 in fact a very large sum at the time? To him of course it would probably seem like a negligible sum since he is irresponsible with money, but what would it represent in our modern currency?

61. "And Edmund, silenced, was obliged to acknowledge that the charm of acting might well carry fascination to the mind of genius; and with the ingenuity of love, to dwell more on the obliging, accommodating purport of the message than on anything else."
Please explain this, I'm at a loss!

Chapter 13 (Part 1)

Yes, I think one chapter at a time is a very good idea here!

The amateur theatricals sequence is the novel's other critical set-piece, and as with the business of the gate, it is vital that we understand exactly what Austen is doing here; so I think I will make some general remarks first and then move on to Ilana's specific questions.

To start at the end of this set of questions, we must not assume that because she uses amateur theatricals as she does in Mansfield Park, that Austen herself disapproved of them in a general sense. As Ilana mentions, this was a fairly common entertainment at the time and Austen herself participated in them.

BUT---there were correct and incorrect ways of going about it, and in Mansfield Park we see all the incorrect ways. In particular it required careful choice of material and proper chaperonage of the young people involved, neither of which occurs here.

Beyond that, Austen is using the context of amateur theatricals to make a variety of points here about her characters, so none of this should be taken at face value. Everything that happens in this sequence has a deeper meaning beyond the surface interaction. In particular, she reveals her characters in their true colours: particularly with the gap between Henry Crawford, a natural actor, and Edmund and Fanny who "cannot act".

The first and overriding point here is that they wouldn't be doing this is Sir Thomas were home; and to do so in his absence is disrespectful. That's the immediate point that Edmund makes. There's a crucial little exchange between Tom and Edmund at the outset which is an example of what I mean about this sequence needing to be interpreted both literally and figuratively:

    "If you are resolved on acting," replied the persevering Edmund, "I must hope it will be in a very small and quiet way; and I think a theatre ought not to be attempted. It would be taking liberties with my father's house in his absence which could not be justified."
    "For everything of that nature I will be answerable," said Tom, in a decided tone. "His house shall not be hurt."

But Sir Thomas's house - and his "house", in the broader sense - are hurt by what goes on; hurt both literally (bringing in the carpenters and turning one of Sir Thomas's own rooms into a green-room) and morally. And Tom, who in his father's absence should be his father's proxy and upholding Sir Thomas's standards instead of following his own inclinations, is the person most responsible.

The "danger" to amateur theatricals was that it allowed interactions between young men and women that would not be possible in any other activity. All of the participants here are aware of that at some level, hence the fight over the casting and Julia's withdrawal. This is why the choice of material was critical: it had to be something that would not, of its own nature, create objectionable situations. And our young actors here pick just about the worst thing they could.

BUT---again, BUT---note that Austen clearly expects her readers to be familiar with Lover's Vows: she never bothers to explain the plot or the relationships between the characters. This is another example of her using something to make a point in a novel that wouldn't necessarily apply in reality.

Chapter 13 (Part 2)

I should mention that our very own Carrie has just bravely read Lover's Vows: Carrie, do you want to copy your review here? I'm sure people would find it helpful.

I don't want to get into the play as a whole, which isn't necessary, but there are two critical relationships in it that influence everything that happens during this sequence of the novel.

Lover's Vows has a fairly "shocking" plot involving illicit love and illegitimacy, which is why it is unsuitable for this kind of private activity.

Briefly, Agatha (Maria Bertram) has borne an illegitimate child. When the play opens, her son, Frederick (Henry Crawford), finds her living in abject poverty and many dramatic things then happen. Meanwhile, Amelia (Mary Crawford) is caught between two men, the rich Count Cassel (Mr Rushworth) and the poor clergyman, Anhalt (Edmund Bertram).

Note particularly that Maria and Henry are playing mother and son! And in those characters, when they meet in the first Act of the play, they are required to embrace and kiss...a scene which these two find it necessary to rehearse over and over and over...

Meanwhile, Anhalt makes two long speeches to Amelia. In the first he describes to her a marriage of convenience, in the second a marriage of love. Amelia responds by, in essence, asking Anhalt to marry her. These are the scenes enacted by Edmund and Mary, in front of Fanny.

Lovers' Vows! I read it just last week! It's a translation of a German play by August von Kotzebue. According to its preface Mrs. Inchbald was not the first person to translate the play from German into English. The original translator was a German who apparently didn't speak English very well and the translation was very literal. Mrs. Inchbald made some adaptations as she translated to make the play more appealing for an English audience. It must have been successful since Austen could assume her readers' familiarity with the play. It can be read or downloaded from Project Gutenberg here. It doesn't take long to read the whole thing, but even skimming it can add to your understanding of the rehearsal section of Mansfield Park. Pay particular attention to the stage directions for Maria Bertram/Agatha and Henry Crawford/Frederick's parts, and to Act III, Scene 2 for the dialog between Amelia/Mary Crawford and Anhalt/Edmund Bertram. Also, note that Agatha/Maria Bertram and Count Cassel/Rushworth don't speak to each other in the play, so therefore have no need to rehearse together.

And here is my review of the play:
Lovers' Vows has been preserved from the obscurity it deserves by Jane Austen's Mansfield Park. This is the scandalous play that the Bertram and Crawford siblings rehearse but never perform. What a blessing for their audience. Most of the characters are repeatedly overcome by strong emotions, leading to frequent fainting and embracing, with occasional pauses for fortification from wine. There are a couple of mildly funny exchanges that the actors must have milked for all they were worth. The butler who insisted on speaking in rhyme reminded me of Prince Herbert in the Swamp Castle who just wanted to sing.

The epilogue (in rhyme) seems like a Georgian equivalent of the newsreel:

...So, of course, then, if prose is so tedious a crime,
It of consequence follows, there's virtue in rhime.
The best piece of prose that I've heard a long while,
Is what gallant Nelson has sent from THE NILE.
And had he but told us the story in rhime,
What a thing 'twou'd be; but, perhaps, he'd no time.
So, I'll do it myself—Oh! 'tis glorious news!
Nine sail of the line! Just a ship for each Muse.
As I live, there's an end of the French and their navy--
Sir John Warren has sent the Brest fleet to Old Davy.
'Tis in the Gazette, and that, every one knows,
Is sure to be truth, tho' 'tis written in prose.

Recommended mainly for readers who want to explore Jane Austen's use of this drama in Mansfield Park.

Chapter 13 (Part 3)

47. No, no, and no. :)

These are friends of John Yates, who first gave him the acting bug. The mention of the newspaper suggests that in this case, there was a plan to open the play up to a general neighbourhood audience.

48. We've dealt with the play now; in his friends' version, Yates was not have the part taken by Mr Rushworth at Mansfield Park, a rich but otherwise worthless man (talk about type-casting!).

49. This passage is intended to tell us about the kind of person John Yates is---and in turn, about the kind of people Tom Bertram likes to spend his time with. Lord Ravenshaw cancelling his house party on the death of his grandmother was a standard mark of respect, not something that makes him "one of the most correct men in England", and the fact that Yates thinks the news of the death should have been "suppressed" for a day or two, that the play should have taken precedence over family obligations, says a great deal about him. That Lord Ravenshaw "would not hear of it" suggests Yates actually tried to persuade him.

50. At this time, in real theatrical presentations, there were usually two pieces acted---the main play, and then afterwards a "farce", a short comedy piece. Tom Bertram is making a rather tasteless joke here: My Grandmother was a real farce, the kind of thing that would be presented following a serious play like Lover's Vows, but he is also referencing the fact that the death of Lord Ravenshaw's grandmother broke up the party and left Lord and Lady Ravenshaw alone.

51. It's a novelty to Tom, chiefly because it's not the sort of thing his father would approve of or allow.

52. No, he's describing the colourful kind of costume usually worn by actors in the farce. Otherwise he's basically saying he could take on any sort of role, from the high dramatic (ranting, storming, sighing) to playing comedy: "cutting capers" meant jumping or dancing around, generally acting the fool (something you would expect to see in a farce).

53. It's the stuff they use on billiard tables. Its a cotton material used for various surfaces at the time, and was traditionally green although it did come in other colours.

54. He's getting carried away and trying to construct a fair copy of a real theatre (like the one they had at Lord Ravenshaw's estate), with all of the backdrops and fake doors and moveable panels that you would expect to find in a real theatre. "Run up" means to build in a rough and ready way.

55. Edmund responds to matters get out of hand by being sarcastic, imagining them doing everything as they would in a real theatre, and to the extreme---offering a complete program with every sort of performance from the high drama of "a German play" (he uses this as a generic term for melodrama, but of course Lover's Vows was a German play), to a farce, to song and dance numbers and even acrobatics. At this time, a long play would be broken up with unrelated musical numbers between the acts.

"A good tricking, shifting afterpiece" refers to a particular kind of farce with lots of comedy deriving from false identities or misunderstandings; a figure-dance is a formal kind of performance dance; and a hornpipe was a lively dance traditionally associated with sailors, sometimes with woodwind instrument accompaniment.

56. The green-room is a room in a theatre adjoining the stage, where actors were able to relax while waiting for their scenes, or for the performance to end if they'd finished. (These days the term means the room where guests on TV shows wait to go before the cameras.)

Note that Tom is planning on disrupting a room belonging particularly to Sir Thomas.

57. Generally speaking (and often most unfairly!), acting was considered a disreputable, even immoral business. It was believed to be particularly damaging for women; professional actresses were assumed to be "damaged goods". Even in amateur theatricals there was the danger of "loss of delicacy" and improper interactions with young men; acting was also supposed to feed female (not male, of course!) vanity and make girls restless and dissatisfied with a quiet moral life.

Girls who were engaged were in a bit of a social twilight zone, caught between the two public phases of a woman's life, i.e. as a debutante and as a bride. Engaged girls were supposed to be hyper-careful about their behaviour because they had to guard their reputations on two fronts, as representing their own families and potentially as a member of their husband's. For this reason it was considered appropriate for engaged girls to withdraw from the public eye.

Maria is not only engaged, but engaged without her father's formal consent, so her situation is even more "delicate" than usual. (Ideally her engagement would have been kept secret until Sir Thomas's return.)

So all in all, Edmund feels that Maria shouldn't be involving herself in any questionable activity.

Maria, conversely, argues that being engaged frees her from the "restraints" placed on single girls. (Which not only allows her to participate, but means that it's Julia who shouldn't be!)

58. That's a reference to the play, Douglas: A Tragedy by John Home. It was written in blank verse and was often used in recitations such as that mentioned by Tom:

My name is Norval; on the Grampian Hills
My father feeds his flocks; a frugal swain,
Whose constant cares were to increase his store.
And keep his only son, myself, at home...

(Norval isn't actually the shepherd's son, he's a foundling with a romantic true identity...)

At this time correct diction was very important, and children were drilled in it. Recitation of poetry and speeches from plays was one exercise used to teach correct speech. Clearly Sir Thomas has taken a personal interest in this aspect of his children's education (another example of him being more interested in correct appearances than correct behaviour).

59. I think we've covered that point by now! :)

Though again, the take-home message is Sir Thomas would not permit this, therefore they shouldn't be doing it.

60. It's hard to convert currencies over time, but 20 pounds then was probably equivalent to around 500 pounds now (= ~US$750 and ~AU$950).

So it's a sum that isn't enormous to a family like the Bertrams, but still not an inconsiderable amount to be thrown away on a project like this. (And you're right that it's another mark of Tom's financial irresponsibility.)

61. Edmund, thoroughly disapproving everything to do with the acting project, is brought up short by Mary's eagerness / willingness to be involved. He immediately starts making excuses for her, focusing on the "obliging" nature of her involvement, that is, telling himself that she's only doing it as an act of kindness towards the others, not because she really wants to do it (which might suggest that she is being "indelicate").

But he knows that this isn't really true. So he also tells himself that she is attracted by the novelty - "the charm" - of being given a chance to act, and simply hasn't thought through the moral implications of the situation.

"Genius" here means talent, aptitude. Mary's lively personality makes acting attractive to her.

...and now I'm going to go and have a quiet lie down. :)

>162 cbl_tn:

Thanks, Carrie, that's a big help!

Also, note that Agatha/Maria Bertram and Count Cassel/Rushworth don't speak to each other in the play, so therefore have no need to rehearse together.

Beautiful! :)

>157 Diane-bpcb: & >158 lovelyluck:

Whoops! Sorry, didn't mean to overlook your posts - still more welcomes! :)

>164 lyzard: Yes, I did think I was giving you quite a lot of work with that chapter. I should probably have broken it up into two or three parts! But thank you Liz and Carrie for very informative comments!

I'm enjoying the discussion, but I'm a bit behind. I missed the "Intermission", but I have a question in Chapter 8. Toward the end of the chapter, as the party approaches Sotherton, is a line describing Maria's thoughts....."and it was a pleasure to increase with their approach to the capital freehold mansion, and ancient manorial residence of the family, with all its rights of Court-Leet and Court-Baron."

What is meant by this last phrase?

I'm up to date with my chapters, and really enjoying the tutoring - thanks Liz, and also Carrie for the information about the play. I love the way Maria and Mr Rushworth have parts that don't require them to speak to one another!

>167 Smiler69:

That's fine, Ilana - probably best to keep all the information together.

>168 kac522:

Chapter 8

In feudal times, the manor house was the seat of power and judgement for a district. A court-baron was a legal proceeding overseen by the lord of the manor and his steward, used to sort out disputes amongst the free tenants of the manor; a court-leet dealt with more serious legal matters.

These functions were common in medieval England but became less so as formal courts and trial by jury were more widely instigated. Since Sotherton was only built in Elizabethan times, Maria seems to be getting a bit carried away here, trying to make herself feel important by imaging Sotherton as the powerful manor house of old.

>169 susanj67:

Glad you're enjoying it, Susan!

I'm reading the Mansfield Park section of Bitch in a Bonnet, and I'm not enjoying it as much as I've enjoyed his other commentary. I think it might be because he dislikes Fanny Price so much, and I think some of his comments are perhaps not that accurate because they are coloured by his poor opinion of her.

I do really like his comments about Lady Bertram though. She is one of my favourite minor characters in all of Austen. I think it's fabulous how Austen can entertain me with a character who does absolutely nothing. I'll come back with some quoted material on her . . .

He really dislikes Fanny. This actually helped me to figure out why I like her since I had so many imaginary arguments with Rodi in my head.

I only managed to read one more chapter so far, and have only one question to ask.

Chapter 14

62. Is there anything we should know about the play Heir at Law, since Tom keeps proposing it?

Chapter 14

62. Ha! Actually, yes: Austen is making some very specific points about Tom via his repeated attempts to get The Heir In Law chosen as the play.

The play is, briefly, about an irresponsible, wasteful heir to an estate being (potentially) supplanted by someone who will do the job much better than he ever will. It is not hard to see the application to Tom! But note that when potential plays are being discussed, Tom keeps picking small supporting roles for himself, not leading ones; in conjunction with the allusion to The Heir In Law, and at a time when Tom is neglecting all of his responsibilities as Sir Thomas's proxy, this suggests that on some level, Tom is aware that he isn't up for the "role" of heir to Mansfield Park. Likewise, we have the mention of The Heir In Law as the backdrop to the clash between Tom and Edmund over the former's irresponsibility, perhaps with a hint that Edmund might be a much more fitting inheritor of his father's estate.

Does anybody else have any questions or comments about Chapter 14? - which is chiefly a chapter revealing (bad) character, with all the squabbling over the casting of Lover's Vows! :)

>175 lyzard: There is some discussion about Comedy versus Tragedy. Was one more respectable or why did Austen bring this up? Was it more dramatic to do Tragedy?

ETA: Was one more respectable?

Then as now, tragedy was viewed as being more "serious" than comedy (although those in the business will tell you than comedy is harder); tragedies also tended to have longer, more emotional speeches and scenes, which might appeal to those inclined to self-dramatisation.

There was a feeling that comedy was less respectable, or could be, since (also then as now) people used comedy to get away with material that wouldn't be permitted played straight.

As with most of this chapter, the debate between the characters over tragedy or comedy is about revealing their true natures, and what each of them wants as an individual, not what's best for the group. This is why the argument goes on and on and on...

Fanny looked on and listened, not unamused to observe the selfishness which, more or less disguised, seemed to govern them all, and wondering how it would end...

>141 Nickelini: A tutored read of Jane Eyre would be outstanding.

>162 cbl_tn: Well done! Really interesting. I'd never thought of looking up the play. That brings much more perspective to what was going on. >174 lyzard: The same applies. Intriguing - I'd think Tom would instinctively reject doing The Heir in Law as hitting too close to home.

>171 Nickelini: Totally agree. I loved Bitch in a Bonnet, but thought he got off-track regarding MP for the reasons you give. I did enjoy his analysis of Lady Bertram, and also Mrs. Norris.

>172 RidgewayGirl: Yes.

Great discussion.

>171 Nickelini: >172 RidgewayGirl: >178 jnwelch: I haven't started reading Bitch in a Bonnet yet, though I look forward to it, but I don't think I'll start with his take on Mansfield Park knowing he hates Fanny so much, as she happens to be one of my favourites.

***

Chapter 15

63. "she very kindly took his part in hand, and curtailed every speech that admitted being shortened"
Is it up to everyone individually to cut the speeches as they wish? I was under the impression that Mr Yates was directing the proceedings, but maybe not?

64. "besides pointing out the necessity of his being very much dressed, and chusing his colours"
Is she pointing this out as something likely to appeal to him? Why else otherwise?

65. "Mr. Rushworth liked the idea of his finery very well, though affecting to despise it; and was too much engaged with what his own appearance would be to think of the others, or draw any of those conclusions, or feel any of that displeasure which Maria had been half prepared for."
She'd been prepared for it because of what we spoke of earlier? Because of the fact that it wasn't appropriate for her in her situation to act in a play? In which case Mr Rushworth obviously doesn't care much about conventions either, does he?

66. "I am to be Count Cassel, and am to come in first with a blue dress and a pink satin cloak, and afterwards am to have another fine fancy suit, by way of a shooting-dress"
I know he doesn't mean he'll be wearing an actual 'dress', but was that how men refer to their garments? What items of clothing did this term describe?

67. "Maria blushed in spite of herself as she answered, "I take the part which Lady Ravenshaw was to have done, and" (with a bolder eye) "Miss Crawford is to be Amelia."
Why 'with a bolder eye'?

68. "I am convinced, madam," said Edmund, preventing Fanny, "that Sir Thomas would not like it."
I'm not quite sure what's going on here—and why he prevents Fanny from ringing the bell. Didn't Lady Bertram just agree with him that Sir Thomas wouldn't like it?

69. What is deal board? I'm trying to determine the importance of the incident of Dick Jackson wanting to take two bits of deal board to his parents, but I'm guessing if Mrs Norris is making such a big fuss about it, it musn't be worth the big deal she's making out of it after all...

70. "a most welcome interruption was given by the entrance of Mr. and Miss Crawford, who, late and dark and dirty as it was, could not help coming"
Why 'dirty'?

71. "while his sister made her way to Lady Bertram, and with pleasant attention was complimenting her."
What is Maria's motivation for complimenting Lady Bertram, out of all people??

72. "You chose very wisely, I am sure," replied Miss Crawford, with a brightened look; "Anhalt is a heavy part."
What does she mean by it being a 'heavy part'?

73. "I am not going to urge her," replied Mrs. Norris sharply; "but I shall think her a very obstinate, ungrateful girl, if she does not do what her aunt and cousins wish her—very ungrateful, indeed, considering who and what she is."
I am astounded at the cruelty of this remark. Mrs Norris has shown herself to be remarkably mean so far, but this seems to go too far. And what does she mean anyway by saying 'what' she is??

Q 73 "I am not going to urge her," replied Mrs. Norris sharply; "but I shall think her a very obstinate, ungrateful girl, if she does not do what her aunt and cousins wish her—very ungrateful, indeed, considering who and what she is."
I am astounded at the cruelty of this remark. Mrs Norris has shown herself to be remarkably mean so far, but this seems to go too far. And what does she mean anyway by saying 'what' she is??

I came here to post a bit of entertainment, but your last comment and question provide the perfect segue into my bit. "What" she is? My interpretation is that Aunt Norris thinks Fanny is a mongrel, the spawn of an undesirable marriage, an unwanted person who has been graced with all the advantages of living at Mansfield Park (all those advantages except like, you know, being treated as a person worthy of respect). Aunt Norris thinks Fanny should be in full grovel mode at all times, and is miffed that Fanny doesn't end every sentence with "I'm not worthy." Using "what" of course makes Fanny an object--it dehumanizes her. That's my take on it--Liz of course can correct or add to that. I only mention it because I'm here to share what Robert Rodi aka Bitch in a Bonnet says about Aunt Norris:

"Mrs Norris is a compendium of the worst traits of every Austen villain up till now: she comprises Lady Catherine de Bourgh's bullying, Caroline Bingley's smugness, Mr Collins's shameless sycophancy, Mrs Bennet's delusions of humility, and Fanny Dashwood's martyr complex. And to these she adds a fault all her own: triumphal miserliness. By rights she should be a kind of Frankenstein monster, a mangle of elements that don't mesh at all, but in fact she works beautifully, all the ghastly attributes integrating like cogs in an infernal machine, interlocking with each other and keeping them in perpetual motion."

I thought that was fun,.

>178 jnwelch:

A tutored read of Jane Eyre would be outstanding.

{*whimper*}

Well, we'll see...

I'd think Tom would instinctively reject doing The Heir in Law

That's another of Austen's jokes; as with Lover's Vows she expects the reader to pick up on the implications. Tom himself doesn't see any further than that the play has a good comedy part for him.

As promised back in post 171, I'm here to share some of Bitch in a Bonnet bits on Lady Bertram:

"Lady Bertram doesn't venture out to witness her daughters' triumphs, because that would require things like listening to other people speak, not being in the supine, and a pulse. Seriously, at this point I doubt her ankles even work anymore. When she dangles her feet over the edge of her chaise, I imagine they just drape there, like Salvador Dali's clocks . . . "

And

"This leaves Fanny to stay at home and keep Lady Bertram company, which has got to be a fairly easy task, given that Lady Bertram mainly passes the time by making mouth bubbles."

And

". . . and who's going to sit with Lady Bertram and watch her stare at molecules while we're gone. . . "

And for a more serious take on Lady Bertram, and what the Bertrams mean to Mansfield Park, see John Sutherland's essay (found in Can Jane Eyre Be Happy?), titled "Pug: Dog or Bitch." (And yes, that titled is designed to make you comment "why would I care?). You can find a pdf of the short essay at:

www.uwyo.edu/numimage/texts/sutherland-mp-pug.pdf

Sutherland's essay has also enlightened me on the relationship between Darcy and his cousin Anne DeBourgh--his attraction to Elizabeth Bennet's vitality that went beyond person preference for athletic girls. But that's another book and another discussion.

>182 Nickelini: Ha! Oh, I love those Rodi quotes so much! "making mouth bubbles" may be my favorite, although "like Salvador Dali's clocks" gives it a run for its money. :-)

Chapter 15 (Part 1)

63. Professional companies often substantially re-worked even famous plays to suit themselves, so there's no reason a bunch of amateurs wouldn't. In this case, (i) they're never going to get anywhere if things aren't simplified for Mr Rushworth, and (ii) no-one is going to object to less of Mr Rushworth. Yates is busy arranging the "theatre", but as for the play itself, like all the others he's only interested in what affects himself.

64. Yes - she's encouraging him by reminding him of his opportunity to dress up, which - as per your next quote - he's exciting about, though pretending otherwise.

65. Either because of the circumstances we discussed earlier, or - more likely - because of Maria's interaction with Henry Crawford. "...or draw any of those conclusions, or feel any of that displeasure..." indicates that Maria knows very well she's doing something she shouldn't be---not just in that she is involved in the theatricals, but specifically that she has fought for an arrangement that pairs her with Henry. She is conscious that Mr Rushworth has every right to feel displeased with her. Mr Rushworth isn't much of a thinker (to say the least) and at the moment he's distracted by his own situation and isn't really paying attention. That will change...

66. It means a full suit of clothes, a complete outfit.

67. Again, Maria knows that, however you look at it, she shouldn't be doing this. She blushes because she's conscious that Edmund is right in his implied criticisms of her generally, and with respect to the part she is playing. The best she can come back with is a reference to Mary Crawford, suggesting that if it's all so wrong, then she's wrong too. She knows she's hitting Edmund on a vulnerable point there; we've already seen his willingness to make excuses where her involvement is concerned (61.). "A bolder eye" means Maria looks him in the face as she's mentioning Mary.

68. The servants will come in response to the bell and Edmund doesn't want them in the room while he's criticising the others and trying to make his mother take action (good luck with that!). Lady Bertram has agreed with him, but she hasn't spoken to the others, as Edmund is trying to push her to do.

69. if Mrs Norris is making such a big fuss about it, it musn't be worth the big deal she's making out of it after all

Quite right! It's a couple of bits of leftover wood from the theatre building, hardly grand theft auto! - even assuming that the Jacksons do intend to snabble them for their own use, rather than putting them away for work around the estate. "Deal" is another word for pine wood.

70. It's been raining and it's muddy: "dirt" in the country usually meant mud. (In London it could mean something nastier!)

71. Complimenting only in the way of making small talk. Greeting her and chatting is the polite thing to do, though we also note that Edmund is sitting with Lady Bertram and that Mary's focus soon switches to him.

72. Difficult, serious, not fun. She is reinforcing Mr Rushworth's choice of Count Cassel, though of course for selfish reasons.

Chapter 15 (Part 2)

73. "I am not going to urge her," replied Mrs Norris sharply; "but I shall think her a very obstinate, ungrateful girl, if she does not do what her aunt and cousins wish her—very ungrateful, indeed, considering who and what she is."

Joyce's answer in #180 effectively addresses this; it also, I think, emphasises the reasons why Mrs Norris suggested bringing Fanny to Mansfield Park in the first place, so there would always be someone in a subordinate position and available to be bullied.

Some analysts have suggested that, through Fanny, Mrs Norris is taking out her anger against her sister, Frances, who married who she wanted to and escaped from the stifling family circle---i.e. that she specifically wanted not just a girl, but the girl named after her mother.

The other point I will mention here, but only mention, as it becomes more important going forward, is that people have also suggested that Austen is drawing upon King Lear here, in which the only loyal daughter, Cordelia, is repeatedly misunderstood and accused of ingratitude. "Ingratitude" is a word that will come to haunt poor Fanny.

>180 Nickelini: My interpretation is that Aunt Norris thinks Fanny is a mongrel, the spawn of an undesirable marriage, an unwanted person who has been graced with all the advantages of living at Mansfield Park (all those advantages except like, you know, being treated as a person worthy of respect). Aunt Norris thinks Fanny should be in full grovel mode at all times, and is miffed that Fanny doesn't end every sentence with "I'm not worthy." Using "what" of course makes Fanny an object--it dehumanizes her.

I think you sum it up perfectly, Joyce.

>184 lyzard:

65. Either because of the circumstances we discussed earlier, or - more likely - because of Maria's interaction with Henry Crawford.
True enough things worked out that way, but then Maria did choose her role before Henry Crawford chose his, didn't she? I'll have to reread that section, because my faulty memory seems to recall Henry's role was up for grabs before he took it up...

>185 lyzard: Interesting points you raise up here (i) about Mrs Norris having chosen the girl named after her mother and taking out her anger toward her sister via Fanny and (ii) Austen being influenced by King Lear, with Fanny taking the place of Cordelia. Only Cordelia started out being Lear's favourite and I don't think Fanny held that position at any point, and she certainly won't suffer the tragic ending Cordelia did, so obviously Jane Austen decided to rewrite the role at great length!

65. In Chapter 14, Tom takes the rhyming butler, and Yates takes Baron Wildenheim after he and Henry each hesitate between that role and Frederick. Mr Rushworth is left to "do anything". It is after Henry takes the role of Frederick that Maria and Julia start fighting over Agatha.

Maria's consciousness that Mr Rushworth has a right to be "displeased" comes later.

>187 lyzard: Ah! I missed that somehow. Obviously wasn't attentive enough. I've been quite tired lately, mind you.

>182 Nickelini: "like Salvador Dali's clocks"
That's just the best image. Thanks for that. :)

>184 lyzard: Re: 69. I was thinking that what happened here was that Dick was running his errand on purpose right when the servants' dinner bell was ringing in hopes of cadging some food.
In any case, I love Mrs. Norris complaining here about greedy people who try to get all they can. :)

I love Mrs. Norris complaining here about greedy people who try to get all they can.

Well, she would be sensitive on THAT subject. :)

Just read a couple more chapters. No rush though Liz!

Chapters 16 & 17

Chapter 16

74. "The room had then become useless, and for some time was quite deserted, except by Fanny, when she visited her plants, or wanted one of the books, which she was still glad to keep there, from the deficiency of space and accommodation in her little chamber above: but gradually, as her value for the comforts of it increased, she had added to her possessions, and spent more of her time there; and having nothing to oppose her, had so naturally and so artlessly worked herself into it, that it was now generally admitted to be hers. The East room, as it had been called ever since Maria Bertram was sixteen, was now considered Fanny's, almost as decidedly as the white attic: the smallness of the one making the use of the other so evidently reasonable that the Miss Bertrams, with every superiority in their own apartments which their own sense of superiority could demand, were entirely approving it; and Mrs. Norris, having stipulated for there never being a fire in it on Fanny's account, was tolerably resigned to her having the use of what nobody else wanted, though the terms in which she sometimes spoke of the indulgence seemed to imply that it was the best room in the house."
I find that whole passage absolutely heartbreaking. And here I see the comparison with Jane Eyre more blatantly than anything we've seen before so far. Again, here is Mrs Norris being both a miser and trying to save on the Bertram's account, while taking a good opportunity to stick it to Fanny that she's worthless... how dare she! and why do they listen to her anyway with ridiculous advice of that kind?!? It isn't like they can't afford to light a fire in one extra room, I'm sure!

75. What are those work-boxes and netting-boxes Fanny should feel so grateful for?

76. "I know no harm of Charles Maddox; but the excessive intimacy which must spring from his being admitted among us in this manner is highly objectionable, the more than intimacy—the familiarity."

"Perhaps you are not so much aware as I am of the mischief that may, of the unpleasantness that must arise from a young man's being received in this manner: domesticated among us; authorised to come at all hours, and placed suddenly on a footing which must do away all restraints. To think only of the licence which every rehearsal must tend to create. It is all very bad!
Would this indeed be the case? Or is he just... trying to make a case? (I would tend to think the latter, considering what follows immediately after...)

77. "She never appeared more amiable than in her behaviour to you last night. It gave her a very strong claim on my goodwill."
I haven't expressed my opinion on Mary Crawford before, but I think she is very manipulative and I tend not to like her for that reason. I don't think the 'concern' she showed towards Fanny the previous nights was at all genuine, and that it was exactly calculated to have the appearance it had so she might have exactly the strong claim she did end up winning.

78. "You, in the meanwhile, will be taking a trip into China, I suppose"
Is he referring to her reading material?

79. Is there anything we ought to know about Lord Macartney, Crabbe's Tales or Idler which is directly or indirectly related to the story or the characters?

80. "Could it be possible? Edmund so inconsistent! Was he not deceiving himself? Was he not wrong? Alas! it was all Miss Crawford's doing."
He must think himself really in love with her, and Miss Crawford is a very crafty manipulator! But as you've pointed out, it is rather strange that she should apply her arts toward attracting the brother who can't bring her wealth or titles.

81. "She was beyond their reach; and if at last obliged to yield—no matter—it was all misery now."
How is this any different from what she's known till then?



Chapter 17

82. "Such a victory over Edmund's discretion had been beyond their hopes, and was most delightful."
I was on the contrary under the impression they were only applying pressure on him when Tom was threatening to bring in a stranger to act the role.

83. "all were finding employment in consultations and comparisons, or diversion in the playful conceits they suggested."
I don't understand that second portion of the sentence.

84. "She alone was sad and insignificant: she had no share in anything; she might go or stay; she might be in the midst of their noise, or retreat from it to the solitude of the East room, without being seen or missed."
As I said in Q81—and I'm not trying to be mean—but how is this any different from what she's experienced since she's been living among them?

85. "Henry Crawford had trifled with her feelings; but she had very long allowed and even sought his attentions, with a jealousy of her sister so reasonable as ought to have been their cure"
Please explain this?

86. "I often think of Mr. Rushworth's property and independence, and wish them in other hands; but I never think of him. A man might represent the county with such an estate; a man might escape a profession and represent the county."
What is she saying here? That he's basically not making use of his privileged position and wealth?

87. What can you tell us about Hawkins Browne's 'Address to Tobacco'?

Chapter 16

74. As far as Mrs Norris goes, we need to appreciate that she is both a miser and a petty tyrant. What she "gains" from her behaviour is psychological, not material. We discussed in the previous posts some possible explanations for her attitude towards Fanny, and whatever specifics underlie her treatment of Fanny, it seems to boil down to always having someone socially lower than she is, who is otherwise the lowest-ranked, least important member of the family.

But the ultimate responsibility here lies with Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram. We talked a lot when we were doing Pride And Prejudice about the Bennets as parents, and this is something similar. Lady Bertram is totally useless, and Sir Thomas should have stepped up as regards the way things are done in his household---granting that this is usually the wife's responsibility; but if Lady Bertram can't or won't, then it is on Sir Thomas to be vigilant. Instead he has progressively ceded power to Mrs Norris, and contents himself with the appearance of things instead of looking into what is actually going on.

This is particularly true with respect to the Bertram children - most of all the girls, since the boys were sent to school. Sir Thomas is satisfied that Maria and Julia are "accomplished"; he never inquires into their characters or morals. He is content with superficialities, when he should be looking deeper.

As far as a fire in Fanny's room goes, it's another bit of petty tyranny on Mrs Norris's part---one which, given the nature of it (as a piece of housekeeping), Sir Thomas simply wouldn't know about. Under other circumstances, the housekeeper might have said something to Lady Bertram, but we can guess that not only does she know there's no point in doing that, but she has lost battles to Mrs Norris in the past and probably doesn't want to invite trouble---certainly not in defence of Fanny, whose place in the household she would understand. And of course, it would never in a million years cross Fanny's mind to complain, let alone ask for a fire. She has absorbed all those early lessons about "who and what she is".

75. Hinged boxes for storing and carrying sewing and other craft materials. "Work" was plain sewing, that is, things like hemming shirts or sewing on buttons; "netting" was like a form of knitting, but used to produce a fairly fine material with an open weave, which was then used to make scarves or purses.

These boxes were obviously considered appropriate gifts for girls, particularly since girls and women were never supposed to be idle, or to just enjoy themselves, but to keep busy with household tasks. (Note, though, that Lady Bertram's entirely useless craftwork is Austen highlighting the pointlessness of this "work for work's sake" attitude.)

76. It would be the case, but---

Obviously Edmund is dealing with some very mixed motives here. Everything he says about inviting outsiders in and it making a bad situation worse is perfectly valid, but the validity of that stance is clearly not the only reason he takes it.

77. I disagree. We're clear enough on what Mary's faults are, but at the same time she is capable of kindness, and this is a particularly interesting example of it, since she does what the Bertrams have long since given up doing: she reacts to Mrs Norris's rotten treatment of Fanny:

    Miss Crawford, looking for a moment with astonished eyes at Mrs. Norris, and then at Fanny, whose tears were beginning to shew themselves, immediately said, with some keenness, "I do not like my situation: this place is too hot for me," and moved away her chair to the opposite side of the table, close to Fanny, saying to her, in a kind, low whisper, as she placed herself, "Never mind, my dear Miss Price, this is a cross evening: everybody is cross and teasing, but do not let us mind them"; and with pointed attention continued to talk to her and endeavour to raise her spirits, in spite of being out of spirits herself. By a look at her brother she prevented any farther entreaty from the theatrical board, and the really good feelings by which she was almost purely governed were rapidly restoring her to all the little she had lost in Edmund's favour.
    Fanny did not love Miss Crawford; but she felt very much obliged to her for her present kindness; and when, from taking notice of her work, and wishing she could work as well, and begging for the pattern, and supposing Fanny was now preparing for her appearance, as of course she would come out when her cousin was married, Miss Crawford proceeded to inquire if she had heard lately from her brother at sea, and said that she had quite a curiosity to see him, and imagined him a very fine young man, and advised Fanny to get his picture drawn before he went to sea again—she could not help admitting it to be very agreeable flattery, or help listening, and answering with more animation than she had intended.

There is a suggestion that Mary is "performing" for Edmund in the qualifier, "almost" - the really good feelings by which she was almost purely governed - but a bigger one, I think, that while she's conscious of Edmund's attitude, her impulse towards Fanny is genuine enough, and she certainly takes pains to get her to open up a bit. What we take away, I guess, is that while nothing Mary does is ever quite pure, she is capable of better.

I would add that Edmund's over-reading of Mary's behaviour is not Mary's fault! :)

78. & 79. In the 1790s, Lord Macartney was part of an embassy to China that tried to negotiate new trade agreements, but was mostly unsuccessful.

Fanny is reading one of the volumes of Some Account of the Public Life and a Selection from the Unpublished Writings, of the Earl of Macartney; the second volume, Journal of the Embassy to China, Macartney's own account of his mission, was republished separately in 1807.

Various academics have read different things into Fanny's choice of reading material - it's one of those little details that can mean everything or nothing.

The Idler was a series of essays, most of them by Dr Samuel Johnson, which were originally published between 1758 - 1760, and dealt with a wide variety of subjects.

Crabbe's Tales represents both a tribute and a Jane Austen in-joke. George Crabbe was a poet, and one of Austen's favourites; his "tales" are actually poems, or stories told in verse. One of his lengthier works was called The Parish Register, which tells recounts various stories about the inhabitants of a village. One of them is about a poor but virtuous village girl who must resist the pursuit of an untrustworthy baronet who tries to lead her astray with promises of luxury and wealth. The girl's name is "Fanny Price"...

Sir Edward Archer is an amorous knight,
And maidens chaste and lovely shun his sight;
His bailiff’s daughter suited much his taste,
For Fanny Price was lovely and was chaste...

“Hope of my life, dear sovereign of my breast,
Which, since I knew thee, knows not joy nor rest;
Know, thou art all that my delighted eyes,
My fondest thoughts, my proudest wishes prize;
And is that bosom - (what on earth so fair!)
To cradle some coarse peasant’s sprawling heir,
To be that pillow which some surly swain
May treat with scorn and agonise with pain?"...

..."And tallest mirrors, reaching to the floor,
Shall show you all the object I adore;
Who, by the hands of wealth and fashion dress’d,
By slaves attended and by friends caress’d,
Shall move, a wonder, through the public ways,
And hear the whispers of adoring praise.
Your female friends, though gayest of the gay,
Shall see you happy, and shall, sighing, say,
While smother’d envy rises in the breast, -
‘Oh! that we lived so beauteous and so blest!'"...

...To this the Damsel, meekly firm, replied:
“My mother loved, was married, toil’d, and died;
With joys she’d griefs, had troubles in her course,
But not one grief was pointed by remorse:
My mind is fix’d, to Heaven I resign,
And be her love, her life, her comforts mine.”

80. As in 77., Mary's interest in Edmund shows that she has better feelings, though she usually doesn't give in to them. She has been raised to think of marriage only in terms of social position and money, and yet she is continually swayed by her attraction to Edmund, who can give her neither. As for Edmund, he is certainly is in love with Mary, though we, like Fanny, understand that he is viewing her through rose-coloured glasses.

81. Chiefly because for the first time, she and Edmund are on opposite sides of an issue. Also because she has been forced to witness Edmund not only doing wrong, but doing wrong as a conscious choice - led astray by his feelings for another woman. Fanny started off worrying about her own behaviour, what she should do; now she just doesn't care.

Just a side-issue touching on what we discussed above re: Fanny's debut:

Chapter 16

...and supposing Fanny was now preparing for her appearance, as of course she would come out when her cousin was married...

Mary, as an outsider, supposes that Maria's marriage means Fanny will be coming out, whereas no-one in her family has mentioned it.

Chapter 17

82. While we don't know how serious Tom was in his suggestion of bringing in an outsider, I'm inclined to think he meant it, that it wasn't just an empty threat, on the basis of how surprised they are when Edmund gives in: they didn't say it to get that outcome and weren't expecting it, although they're thrilled (in a very nasty way) that they did.

83. They are all amusing themselves working out how scenes might be played; a "conceit" in this context is an idea, something conceived.

84. We have to read statements like that through the prism of Fanny's sensitivity. This is an expression of her consciousness that for the first time, she's taken a public stance on something. She feels as if she has cut herself off from the others and is being shunned as a consequence, rather than just passively overlooked. She's also very aware that Edmund is on the other side of the divide, separated from her by his actions. As a consequence she feels even more unwanted and lonely than usual.

85. The fact that Julia is jealous of Henry's attentions to Maria, that he has led her on to the point where she can be jealous, should be enough to tell her that he never meant anything by it, which in turn should help her get over it.

86. In general she is saying that someone in Mr Rushworth's position should go into public life as a politician - stand for parliament - "represent the county". More specifically she's suggesting it's an unjust world and Mr Rushworth doesn't deserve to have so much, that his possessions would be better off in the hands of someone who could do much more with them...and "escape a profession". In other words, she's thinking how sweet it would be if Edmund had an estate and twelve thousand pounds a year. (As with Tom, she never for a moment thinks of Mr Rushworth as a marital prospect, in spite of his wealth.)

87. Isaac Hawkins Browne was a politician and a poet. The reference here is to a series of poems written in imitation of the style of other poets, all on the same subject: A Pipe Of Tobacco.

We might note that Mary prefers parodies of poems to actual poems (unlike Fanny).

I like Mary. I think that she's surprised by her attraction to Edmund, who isn't who she'd expect to be interested in. He's solemn and set on a career that not only would keep her from her usual social activities, but one that she has little respect for and which would mean a much less financially secure life. And Edmund's surprised, too. He wouldn't usually like a woman who speaks without thinking and who tends to be the person in the room that people look at. But she sees his steadiness and he sees that behind the bright exterior, Mary is kind (and he likes the bright exterior).

I mean, we largely see Mary through Fanny's eyes. And Fanny's been conditioned to be mistrustful and besides, she is seeing Mary primarily as someone who could take Edmund away from her.

74. Under other circumstances, the housekeeper might have said something to Lady Bertram, but we can guess that not only does she know there's no point in doing that, but she has lost battles to Mrs Norris in the past and probably doesn't want to invite trouble---certainly not in defence of Fanny, whose place in the household she would understand. And of course, it would never in a million years cross Fanny's mind to complain, let alone ask for a fire. She has absorbed all those early lessons about "who and what she is".

You've brought up something I've been meaning to ask about, as I was wondering how Fanny would be viewed by the servants, given her lowly status among the Bertrams. More specifically, whether the servants would treat her with respect and deference or if instead they would treat her like one of them or worse, like one who is below their own status? As regards the fact that Fanny wouldn't speak up for herself and ask for a fire and has absorbed the lessons about who she is, etc., I guess this is where a lot of people dislike her as a heroine, find her to be a wallflower and find it difficult to respect her. I admit this does go against the grain for me too, though I can relate to her in many other ways considering her circumstances and the fact she's had little encouragement or support and that she doesn't have a rebellious nature to begin with, so giving in would be her way of coping with her circumstances.

77. You've said it yourself—that 'almost' is exactly what makes me doubt Mary's sincerity. And genuine 'enough' just isn't good enough for me, sorry! ;-)

78 & 79. I'd be curious to know what the academics have to say on her choice of reading material. Somehow I feel certain Jane Austen didn't choose it at random. That excerpt from Crabbe's Tales for example, do you think that's where she picked her heroine's name, or did she pick the book because of her name? Hen and egg situation?

>193 lyzard: I'm sure Mary thinks that should be a normal occurrence because she has no idea that Fanny is in fact supposed act like the family's grovelling mongrel basically, or is at best a non-entity, so there is no question of putting out any expense or making any sort of fuss about her, and I'm sure Aunt Norris, if she hasn't expressly declared that she should NOT have a coming out already, would do so vehemently if anybody had the temerity to suggest she should, heaven forbid.

82. although they're thrilled (in a very nasty way) that they did.
They certainly show their true colours there, don't they?

86. Aha! I should have interpreted 'and wish them in other hands' to mean 'wish them in Edmund's hands' basically.

>195 RidgewayGirl: I admit I can't make sense at all of that attraction between Edmund and Mary, other than as an impediment for Fanny. But we'll see how things evolve... as I can't recall how they do right now.

>196 Smiler69: But isn't the idea of opposites attracting a fairly established tradition in literature?

>195 RidgewayGirl:

Yes and no, I think. Like most of us, Mary has mixed motives; that's not a problem. But on the other hand there are times when we see her directly, without the intervention of Fanny's disapproval, and some darker characteristics are evident.

We have for example this passage from Chapter 17:

    "I rather wonder Julia is not in love with Henry," was her observation to Mary.
    "I dare say she is," replied Mary coldly. "I imagine both sisters are."

That Mary sees clearly enough what Henry is doing, and basically doesn't care how much trouble he causes, is indicative of a fairly callous streak, which most of the time is hidden by the fact that she's bright and clever.

>196 Smiler69:

74. The servants would take their cues from the family - although that said, we don't imagine there's much opportunity for unkindness on their part, or anything like that. Of course, Fanny would still have general services like laundry and cleaning done for her, but otherwise it's unlikely that she makes any demands or even requests.

I think some of the complaints about Fanny stem from an imperfect understanding of how society worked at the time (although I guess I can't accuse Robert Rodi of that!). They want some kind of unrealistic rebellion scene, I guess, but neither from character nor situation is it going to happen like that.

77 Yes, as above, she has mixed motives - but don't you? I certainly do! :D

Mary reacts quite spontaneously to Mrs Norris's nastiness, and I don't think we need to doubt that her first impulse comes from a desire to comfort Fanny. But don't overlook the possibility that the qualifier 'almost' refers not to her wanting to impress Edmund, but wanting to be rude to Mrs Norris: something I think we can all sympathise with!

78 & 79. As far as Lord Macartney goes, the academics get into the specific content of his journal and how his views on imperialism etc. might or might not thematically resonate in Mansfield Park---which I think is a bit beyond what we're trying to do here!

Otherwise, I think the main point is that Fanny's taste in reading is very close to Austen's own - something we've seen before in her novels (interestingly enough, she shares tastes with Marianne Dashwood). The literary references in Austen's novels are never random, and there are a number of studies out there showing how she uses literary allusions to enrich her writing (as indeed she does with her use of Lover's Vows and even The Heir In Law here).

82. That's an outrageous exposure of Tom and Maria, really:

It was, indeed, a triumphant day to Mr Bertram and Maria. Such a victory over Edmund's discretion had been beyond their hopes, and was most delightful. There was no longer anything to disturb them in their darling project, and they congratulated each other in private on the jealous weakness to which they attributed the change, with all the glee of feelings gratified in every way. Edmund might still look grave, and say he did not like the scheme in general, and must disapprove the play in particular; their point was gained: he was to act, and he was driven to it by the force of selfish inclinations only. Edmund had descended from that moral elevation which he had maintained before, and they were both as much the better as the happier for the descent...

Running ahead a little, into Chapter 18, we have this:

She knew, also, that poor Mr Rushworth could seldom get anybody to rehearse with him: his complaint came before her as well as the rest; and so decided to her eye was her cousin Maria's avoidance of him, and so needlessly often the rehearsal of the first scene between her and Mr Crawford, that she had soon all the terror of other complaints from him...

I thought some extra detail about this point might be helpful:

As we touched upon above, Maria and Henry are playing mother and son; the adult Frederick has just found the destitute Agatha. Among the stage directions for this first scene between them, we find Agatha Rising, and embracing him, that Frederick Leans her head against his breast, and then takes her hand and puts it to his heart. Later, Frederick embraces her again, while Agatha presses him to her breast.

This is what Maria and Henry feel compelled to rehearse "needlessly often".

This might help to explain why Edmund is so horrified at the choice of material - and why Fanny is so horrified at his capitulation.

On the other hand, Austen makes no explicit reference to these rehearsal directions, even though one of them (the hand-holding) intrudes itself at a dramatic point in her narrative. We must suppose that for all its "improper" material, Lover's Vows was widely enough known that she could be oblique about what was going on.

Running around a bit—I'll be back either later tonight or tomorrow to post questions on chapters 18 and 19.

On 76and 82 I thought Edmund's motives here were pretty straightforward, and only a little mixed. Maria is putting herself in an unseemly situation in all kinds of ways, by acting, by acting in this particular play, by her choice of role, by acting opposite Henry Crawford, by the particular nature of her scenes, etc. Edmund has already called this out but has been repeatedly overruled/ignored. As I understand it, this is all bad enough but would be even worse if the circle of participants expands to include others, like Charles Maddox.

It seems to me Edmund has up until this point acted in good faith by trying to represent what he thinks his father's wishes would be and trying to appeal to his siblings' better judgment (but they don't seem to have any). But he doesn't really seem to have any leverage against Tom, who doesn't even acknowledge (until later) that there could be anything amiss with the project. There is no chance that the others will listen if Edmund continues to raise objections to bringing in additional people, since they haven't listened to any other objections. I saw Edmund as caught between a rock and a hard place, and opting to take on the role because he genuinely thought the damage to the family would be worse if he continued to refuse.

I also wondered if he didn't have some idea of "protecting" Mary Crawford from any indignity of acting her scenes with a stranger. In addition to whatever spark of jealousy may have arisen.

In any case, although I'd agree that Edmund may have found the idea of acting scenes with Mary intriguing on one level, I can't help but believe he would have thoroughly preferred not to participate and to call off the whole thing if he could have had his way in anything.

Tom and Maria seem to have no conception of what might have actually motivated Edmund's change, and to attribute it exclusively to selfish and unseemly motives or to some mysterious stroke of luck. While I can see how Edmund's motives might be a little bit mixed, this strikes me as a misreading on their part that says more about their own motives than his.

Chapter 18

88. "every day thus unemployed was tending to increase his sense of the insignificance of all his parts together, and make him more ready to regret that some other play had not been chosen."
Tom was happy to take on small parts to begin with, so why does he now wish they'd done another play?

89. "From this moment there was a return of his former jealousy, which Maria, from increasing hopes of Crawford, was at little pains to remove"
I'm not sure I understand what kind of hopes she can be entertaining as regards Crawford since she's already engaged to someone else.

90. "and the theatre is engaged of course by those indefatigable rehearsers, Agatha and Frederick. If they are not perfect, I shall be surprised."
No question here. I just had a mental image of what they were rehearsing, and it made me smile; though I doubt anyone else finds their goings on very amusing.

91. "I thought he began to look a little queer, so I turned it off as well as I could"
What does 'turned it off' mean in this context?

92. "She believed herself to feel too much of it in the aggregate for honesty or safety in particulars."
Please explain this passage to me.

93. Not a question but a comment on the end of the chapter: I'd completely forgotten that Sir Thomas returns to Mansfield so early in the preparations for the play.



Will post questions for chapter 19 later.

Chapter 18

88. Because the project has gotten completely out of hand now---

...a scene-painter arrived from town, and was at work, much to the increase of the expenses, and, what was worse, of the eclat of their proceedings; and his brother, instead of being really guided by him as to the privacy of the representation, was giving an invitation to every family who came in his way...

---and because it's so much bigger, he's feeling very small. He cast himself in insignificant parts when it was just a family activity and the size of the part wasn't going to matter. Now, however, he wants to be a star! :)

89. She's hoping he'll say something definite to her about his feelings and intentions - if he does, she'll break her engagement, but not until then. Based upon his behaviour to her, she thinks she has reason to believe that he will.

90. Mary apparently finds it amusing enough to joke about (but doesn't understand that others probably don't?).

91. "Turned it off" means tactfully changed the subject, or said something to put a different interpretation on events. It's the latter here, as Mary stresses that the relationship being rehearsed is mother / son.

92. Fanny feels that *everything* they are doing is wrong, to such an extent that she doesn't dare start to criticise individual details of their performance.

93. Dah-dah-DAAAHHHH!!!!!! :D

Question: since we're at the end of Volume I, should I start a new thread before we proceed?

>196 Smiler69: & >198 lyzard:

The servants would take their cues from the family - although that said, we don't imagine there's much opportunity for unkindness on their part, or anything like that. Of course, Fanny would still have general services like laundry and cleaning done for her, but otherwise it's unlikely that she makes any demands or even requests.

I think the servants took the cue from the family as evidenced in Volume 1, Chapter 2 ...Miss Lee wondered at her ignorance, and the maid servants sneered at her clothes...

I know this took place during Fanny's arrival at Mansfield Park but I can't help but wonder with Ilana that given the lowly status that the Bertrams place on Fanny she would be treated well by the servants even after all these years.

ETA: Liz I am enjoying this tutored read immensely along with the The Trail of the Serpent tutored read you did for Madeline a few years ago. What fun that one is!

>201 AnneDC:

I think you're on the right track, Anne, though we're left to decide for ourselves just how mixed Edmund's motives are and to what extent he is aware of his own motivations. And no, Tom and Maria are definitely judging Edmund by themselves!

>205 luvamystery65:

That was true at the beginning, but those early rough edges and signs of poverty would have been long since smoothed away. The servants probably like Fanny now for the lack of trouble she gives them. :)

Thanks, Roberta!

>201 AnneDC: Sorry I skipped over your comment yesterday Anne, I only had a few minutes at the computer and was in a hurry to type what questions I could (was glad I had time to cover all of chapter 18!), but now I have time to read your message I find it very interesting.

I do agree with you that Edmund would have no doubt much preferred NOT to participate in the play, that in fact he would have preferred for there not to be ANY play to take place at all, and at worst for him to be able to keep from participating so that he could stay on a higher moral ground and represent his father's position on the subject. But because his brother cornered him, as you say he was caught between a rock and a hard place and ended up feeling he had to protect Miss Crawford and the family from undue exposure, which was best done by taking on the role himself.

As Liz comments further down in >206 lyzard:, we have then to decide for ourselves how mixed his motives were as to how much his love for his family vs love for Miss Crawford motivated him most though...

>203 lyzard:
89. I have a sense Maria, who from the first only consented to marry Mr Rushworth for his wealth and position; because she has no great love for him (to say the least), any young man with the least amount of charm who was willing to make love to her would have satisfied her hopes of being able to break that engagement...

>204 lyzard: Fine with me to start a new thread, since this one will probably get much too long otherwise. I've had my questions ready for the next chapter since yesterday, but I'll just tack those onto those for next chapter or two when the new thread is up.

Question: for previous tutorials of JA novels I've followed my editions and started numbering the chapters again from 1, 2, 3 etc with each new volume. For some reason I was going to start (chapter 1, Volume 2) as chapter 19, though making the conversion would end up confusing me going forward, so is everyone ok with me resuming as formerly?

>205 luvamystery65: Good of you to bring up that quote from the early part of the book Roberta, because it had more or less escaped my mind. Maybe it was niggling at my subconscious when I brought up my question the other day. Despite what Liz says in >206 lyzard:, that signs of poverty would have been smoothed away all those years later, I'm not convinced that the persistent neglect of the family members and outright vociferous verbal abuse of Aunt Norris (who probably made no bones of shaming Fanny in front of the servants; taking an added pleasure out of it instead), wouldn't have rubbed off on at least some members of the staff who were in daily contact with the family. But as Liz says, there would have been some individual servants who would probably like Fanny for being so undemanding as well. I guess it's up to us to decide! :-)

Certainly Maria has no interest in Mr Rushworth beyond his estate and fortune (though to be fair girls were, at least tacitly, and sometimes quite explicitly, encouraged to marry on those grounds), but on the other hand I have no doubt that Henry has made her believe that he is serious in his intentions - it isn't just a case of "trading up".

The bit about the servants sneering at Fanny's clothes is written so we don't know whether that occurred in front of her, or whether the maids were just gossiping in the servants' hall. There's a tiny passage later on that suggests that now the servants are rather supportive of her (but we'll talk about that when it arises).

I have set up a new thread for Volume II of Mansfield Park, so please carry your comments over there.

It might be helpful to have both forms of numbering, Ilana (i.e. Volume II, Chapter 1 / Chapter 19), as obviously the different forms are used in different editions and it will help avoid confusion and spoilers.

>208 lyzard: I would think the sneering would have been behind her back but a 10 year old can be intuitive. I am glad that there is suggestion that the servants are supportive of her in the future. I look forward to that. Poor Fanny. I really like how she is slowly growing into her own despite everything that is against her. It says a lot about her character.

35 The chapel now has mahogany pews and velvet cushions... sounds much more bling.

>127 streamsong: I'm struck by the parallels between Fanny Price and Jane Eyre: poor relation kept in her place by an unpleasant female relative, not treated as an equal by the other children in the family. But Jane suffered more abuse and had more gumption. She was able to make her way in the world. Fanny is quieter, more passive and physically weak. I'm expecting her to have a happily ever after ending (haven't read this previously), but I wonder what her fate would have been otherwise. I can't see her doing anything but staying on as a companion to Lady Bertram.

Is the 'poor relation' theme common in literature of the time? Was it a common scenario in big houses?

I can't help but imagine Charlotte Bronte reading this novel and deciding to write a different protagonist with a bit of temper and pushback.

I had never though to compare Jane Eyre with Mansfield Park until you mentioned this, but I completely see what you mean. Then today I ran into a conversation that started " I heard at a JASNA meeting once that Jane Eyre was Charlotte’s attempt at a ‘real’ version of Mansfield Park, as she apparently hated the original."

- See more at: http://modernmrsdarcy.com/2014/03/what-to-read-after-jane-austen-elizabeth-gaske...

Bringing up

Oh my goodness, Bonnie! I hope it's of use to you. :)

Very informative Liz. I especially enjoyed learning about the actual play they were using and what ha-ha is. I only had a very vague idea from context clues. This is the only Austen I hadn't read and I'm glad I found this thread because it's very helpful.

That's great to hear, thanks!

>216 lyzard: Stasia and I recently made use of this thread, too, Liz. We read Mansfield Park together in May.

*edited to correct the post reference

Brilliant, thanks for letting me know! :)