The Dreamblood Group Read - August - The Shadowed Sun

I found the first book of this series, The Killing Moon, something of a mixed bag- the setting is very interesting, but I never really got into the characters. Most people who have read both books seem to think the second one is better, though, so I'm looking forward to seeing if that's the case.

Gujaareh, the city of dreams, suffers under the imperial rule of the Kisuati Protectorate. A city where the only law was peace now knows violence and oppression. And nightmares: a mysterious and deadly plague haunts the citizens of Gujaareh, dooming the infected to die screaming in their sleep. Trapped between dark dreams and cruel overlords, the people yearn to rise up — but Gujaareh has known peace for too long.

Someone must show them the way.

Hope lies with two outcasts: the first woman ever allowed to join the dream goddess’ priesthood, and an exiled prince who longs to reclaim his birthright. Together, they must resist the Kisuati occupation and uncover the source of the killing dreams… before Gujaareh is lost forever.

I'm glad we have a Gujareen woman as a protagonist this time- at least I expect she's Gujareen since she's joining Hananja's priesthood. I was a little bothered by Sunandi's general contempt for Gujareen women last time- even here, we have a woman in an atypical role, so we'll see...

This book gets very dark at times, but I found it so much more compelling than its companion. It's not perfect but it's by far my favourite of the three books by Jemisin that I've read, and I had a hard time putting it down.

I've picked up a copy of The Shadowed Sun this morning to start alternating with Collapse. They're both quite chunky so I suspect it will take me the rest of the month to finish them both off! (Although Gujaareh may get some preference - less concentration required...)

I just barely had a chance to start this yesterday, only a few pages in so far so take this with a grain of salt, but...

This beginning seems awfully similar the previous novel- a ritual goes wrong and the protagonist ends up with dream magic slightly out of their control and senses a mysterious presence (hello, Ehiru) while trying to pass their trial to become a full member of the priesthood (hello, Nijiri), and a young child very close to the protagonist ends up dead (hello, Sunandi). I'm sure it will distinguish itself as the story moves on- I realize these are supposed to be companion novels, and as such will probably cover a number of the same things, but that's a bit too similar to me.

>4 sandstone78: yes that did all seem rather familiar, didn't it?

>5 imyril: I had to stop just short of finding out if Dayu's death was going to be treated as "poor Hanani" like so many deaths last book seemed to serve as motivation/characterization/angst rather than actual horrifying tragedy. Assuredly more thoughts as I progress.

>6 sandstone78: Sounds like we're at exactly the same point. I found it slightly interesting that the senior priest seemed to take the attitude that it was all Hanani's fault that Dayu died, in contrast to the rather haphazard attitude to pastoral care demonstrated by the senior Gatherers. I took this to be a point underlining his sexism rather than something new and different, though.

Okay, so far, still so similar: I'm now over 25% of the way through and each of the characters has been introduced in turn, and events have shuffled along to force our protagonists out of Gujaareh and into the desert.

I am liking Hanani considerably better than any of the characters in The Killing Moon, although I'm reserving judgment on Wanahomen. He actually reminds me quite strongly of Prince Khian in Warriors of Taan, which I reread recently - all sharp spiky edges and pride and an awful lot to prove (perhaps mostly to himself), and similarly in need of a Leith to teach him a few life lessons in humility and compassion. Perhaps that's where Hanani fits in (the compassion anyway; she can hardly teach him any life lessons - she's as naive as he is!)

Hmmm. Okay, jury's in on Wanahomen. He'll be a dreadful Prince. He doesn't understand his obligations; he's just spiteful and self-centred.

I wasn't particularly happy that he accepted Mni-inh and Hanani as hostages (you take responsibility) for hostages) then childishly did nothing to look to their well-being or protection, leaving it to first his mother and then Charris and Yanassa to step in. Because ten years ago he had to look out for himself. He wasn't a hostage - he was a refugee.

Then on the arrival of the Djikeh, he paints a target on Hanani's back. It seemed likely from Hanani's arrival onwards that cultural difference was going to lead to an assault at some point, but it's Wanahomen (again, he's responsibly for her damned safety - she's his hostage) that makes it happen (and in a supposedly safe space). And frankly his/Charris' response times weren't quick enough - if she hadn't been able to defend herself, his willingness to expose her to risk had left her thoroughly exposed.

That said, I'm glad to see that someone within the social framework of the novel (Unte, after Wana sets Hanani up in the tent; I haven't yet read beyond the assault, so I don't know what / if / how he responds later) is also judging Wana and finding him wanting as a human being.

Okay, now two-thirds of the way through and I just wanted to chime in now (in case I change my mind later ;) and say I'm really glad I stuck with the group to read this second volume. I'm enjoying it far more than The Killing Moon even when I don't particularly agree with the twists and turns of plot or character (Such as the Wild Dreamer infecting the Hetawa - it ratchets the stakes up a notch too far for me. Sanfi painting them as helpless against or to blame for the dreaming plague was good politics; wiping them out is... well, probably better politics in the sense of eradicating your enemy, but feels a bit like Hollywood's preferred OMG THE WORLD IS ON THE LINE plotting. I don't need Gujaareh's entire culture at stake for Hanani and Wana to fix singlehandedly; I'm happy with less at stake and more complexity in resolving it. Is that just me? Because it seems vanishingly rare these days. I guess Hananja's Avatar becomes relevant in the end, etc - but, well, overkill. It deadens my interest a bit).

And I'm enjoying character development - it's good to see it given the space here that was lacking in The Killing Moon.

I find I still have lots of questions about gender in Gujaareh, which is making no more sense now than it ever has, but enjoying how it plays out among the Banbarra.

And for what it's worth, I still don't think much of Sunandi ;)

I'm a little bit further in, just got through the first chapter with Sunandi, and I'm interested to see that it looks like we're getting a bit wider scope with a larger cast this time, maybe. I still haven't particularly attached to any of the characters but it's still early- not a fan of Wanahomen particularly.

And I'm done. I still think this is much more successful than The Killing Moon, even though Jemisin chose to do a couple of things plot-wise that I would have preferred to see worked out differently:


+ I like a good character arc, and I enjoyed Wanahomen's development. It's not so much that redeems himself or (I think) undergoes huge change as that he shows he does have good qualities under all the prejudice and temper, and learns to recognise and control his prejudices - most notably in learning to accept that his father was in fact a monster and the Hetawa aren't all murdering fiends. None of which makes his early behaviour forgivable as it wasn't reasonable, just childish and cruel.
- ...which makes Hanani's shift in attitude towards Wanahomen rather Stockholm syndrome.
- ...leaving me uncomfortable with the romance.
+ I enjoyed Hanani as a character, with her mixture of strength/stubbornness and vulnerability/desire to fit in (I didn't see her arc being about gaining confidence; she has that from the start - more about expressing that strength in the absence of constraints that have held her back)
+ ...and I was glad to see that the loss of loved ones was explored as a theme here, even if I wasn't entirely happy with where it ended up (in bed or in dreaming)
+ I did approved of Hanani's final choices (Wanahomen excepted), as I really liked the Banbarra (although there was an equally interesting story of the Hetawa embracing change; it is unclear to what extent this is true beyond Nijiri)
+ ...and Yanassa. Hurray for female friendships!
+/- I liked that the Wild Dreamer plot ended up being the climax rather than the Kisuati, but wasn't wild that Hanani ended up needing rescuing (sort of) by Wanahomen. I expected his dreaming ability to become important, and I liked that it wasn't that but rather his affection for her that was important, but I remain conflicted as we have a rare case of a strong woman in an avenging role - and she then gets talked down from the mountain by a man because unleashing her wrath would be a Bad Thing. Yes, it would have been an equally Bad Thing (in Gujaareen terms) if she'd been a man, and he can't tell her what the right answer is - she ultimately resolves the situation on her own, but he then also forces her to return to life when she would have chosen to die in grief over her taking of another life. So, um. Mixed feelings.
- I'm not entirely convinced by the Kisuati resolution. Military occupations are notoriously hard work, and Sunandi made the point that this one - as most - was politically unpopular at home and less economically viable than anticipated. But nobody with 4000 soldiers at hand (as I think we'd learnt was the case) likes being run out of town. The 2 surviving Protectors were the least martial, but have their own political standing to consider; perhaps sending assassins after the ninja-demon Gatherers as a final farewell at least. But short of the Gatherers literally marching the Protectors to the city limits with jungissa held to their heads, I'm not sure how you force people to take their 4000 troops out of your city if they're bloody-minded. I guess I'm suggesting the Kisuati are a little more peaceful in the end than I expected given the numbers that had been thrown around, although I'm just as glad the book didn't end in a big battle scene ;) And I mustn't underestimate the actual population of Gujaareh - with all the civilians willing to pitch in, I suppose the Kisuati are massively outnumbered.
? I'm really not sure where I stand on the Tiaanet storyline, beyond not needing the rape scene explicitly included - it was very clear what was going on already. She largely voiced all my own questions in the scene where she kills her father - in terms of why she had endured the situation for years - but abusive situations are hideous and twisting and who am I to judge.

So in a nutshell - I really enjoyed this, but would have liked it better without the romance and if Hanani could have wrapped up the Wild Dreamer on her own, perhaps by remembering her vision of the stabbed child.

So the only thing I'm left chewing over at length are gender roles and relative positions in Gujaareen society, which I'm not sure make any more sense to me now than they did at the end of The Killing Moon. It feels vaguely less male-dominated in The Shadowed Sun - we have got to see female nobility (some house leaders in their own right, such as Iezamen) and the implication of female inheritance (Tiaanet will inherit and rule in her own right, unless she marries - in which case I'm less clear on whether her husband gains the estate) and Merchant Benahamin's wife inherits and runs his business, so there seem to be no particular strictures on women as primary actors at all levels of society (outside the priesthood). The Kisuati and the Banbarra both expect their women to be outspoken (Sunandi is surprised at Tiaanet's meekness), but there's a whiff of male arrogance and disapproval at Iezamen's ambition to be a leader of the rebellion and there's no hint of Sanfi considering any of his womenfolk equals, let alone goddesses (but we're obviously not intended to take him as a yardstick - only as corrupt). Ultimately, it still feels a bit confused, especially as we only hear of firstwives (do women ever get to take multiple husbands? Is it only the Sunset who gets to take multiple wives?)

So the Banbarra and the Kisuati make sense to me, but the Gujaareen still feel a bit confused. Given that we see them predominantly through the eyes of the priesthood - who stand outside all this anyway - perhaps that's to be expected :)

I'm a few chapters more in, and interested. I've come to like Hanani quite a bit- she seems to take her duty as a Sharer and priest of Hananja quite seriously, and tries to have the strength and compassion required of her position. I think she's my favorite Jemisin protagonist so far.

I'm interested by Tiaanet as well. I'm not sure where Jemisin is going to take her story, if she's going to be just a window on what the villains or doing or if she's going to have agency of her own. (My bet- I'll wait and see if I'm right- is that her contribution will be killing her father when he goes "too far," possibly losing her life in the process, possibly to avenge her younger sister(?) who will probably die around the climax.) I'll see.

I think the villains are the weak link at this point for me, which has been the case in all of the books by Jemisin I've read. I'm hoping it isn't as it quite as simplistic as it looks at this early point where the source of suffering is a mentally ill child (who isn't in control of her own actions)- that would be disappointing after her more nuanced consideration of mental illness in the first book- and a terrible person who is Power-Mad/Ambitious Because Ambitious under the overt guise of something that possibly has some merit (in this case Liberating Gujaareh).

>12 imyril: Only skimming your post and avoiding the spoilers, but regarding women in Gujareen society, it seemed very much in the last book that it Gujaareh was a pretty standard "women on pedestals not allowed to do anything" society. Sunandi's contempt of Gujareen women seemed to line up with that pretty well too. I'll think about if that lines up with what we actually see as I read.

We kept hearing "oh, women are stronger in the dream realm" but I can't tell yet if that's a stereotype or if it's actually true- I've just seen Tiaanet and her father talking about her not being free to calm their guests' dreams because he was molesting her at the time (shudder).

So, I finished it, and one glaring question seems to be unanswered, to wit why was Hanani able to deal with the Wild Dreamer when more experience Healers and Gatherers were killed? Was it because she was more powerful, because she was a woman, because she had help? It seems strange that the question never occurred to anyone in the book.

>14 jjwilson61: So, to me it seemed like Jemisin was saying that Hanani was able to do so because the experience of institutionalized sexism in the Hetawa made her able to empathize with the chronically physically and sexually abused Tantufi in a way that a privileged Gatherer and male Sharer were not, because she also had experience being treated as a non-person.

I don't really think those things are equivalent, though, as little as we saw of the sexism against Hanani it was hard for me to buy that it was so severe, especially when she had Mni-inh so firmly on her side and also the Gatherers, so that didn't really work for me.