Pride And Prejudice by Jane Austen - lyzard tutoring Smiler69

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Pride And Prejudice by Jane Austen - lyzard tutoring Smiler69

1lyzard
tammikuu 6, 2014, 5:00 pm



Pride And Prejudice by Jane Austen (1813)


Hello, all! Welcome to the tutored read of Jane Austen's Pride And Prejudice; my tutee will be Ilana (Smiler69), with whom I previously worked through Austen's Persuasion (thread here).

Last time Ilana listened to an audiobook version of her chosen novel, but this time she will be reading her spectacular Folio Society edition! :)

Both lurkers and further tutees are very welcome to join in. Our only rules are that (i) Ilana sets the pace for the read; no questions or comments should be posted dealing with chapters beyond where Ilana indicates that she is up to; and (ii) all posts include a bolded chapter number so that everyone can find the passages in question and avoid spoilers where necessary.

Background

Pride And Prejudice was published in 1813. It was Austen's second novel and the one that established her reputation; although at the time it was released only as "By A Lady". The success of the novel is indicated by the fact that Austen's subsequent works were by "the author of Pride And Prejudice".

The title of the novel is famously taken from Cecilia by Frances Burney, an important female novelist of the late 18th century and one of Austen's main influences. Towards the end of Burney's novel, one character tells off several of the others as follows:

The whole of this unfortunate business," said Dr. Lyster, "has been the result of PRIDE and PREJUDICE... Yet this, however, remember: if to PRIDE and PREJUDICE you owe your miseries, so wonderfully is good and evil balanced, that to PRIDE and PREJUDICE you will also owe their termination ..."

However, as with the earlier Sense And Sensibility, this should not be taken to indicate a simplistic, black-and-white schema at work.

As with all of Austen's novels, Pride And Prejudice is about a young woman trying to hold onto her ideals and her sense of self-worth in a world where options for women are extremely limited, where they are entirely financially dependent upon their male relatives, and where a woman is often only valued in terms of her ability to make "a good marriage". What exactly constitutes "a good marriage" is one of the novel's overriding themes, with its central romantic relationship worked out against a background of people who have made good and bad choices for right and wrong reasons.

Before Austen, most novels were heavily didactic and featured young women who were impossibly perfect; novels still had a poor reputation and were considered a corrupting influence (particularly on girls, who were of course naturally weak-minded), and many novelists responded by creating wholly unbelievable characters. One of Austen's main contributions to literature was the introduction of heroines who are believably flawed, who make mistakes, and who learn and grow as a result of their experiences.

2Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 6, 2014, 8:40 pm

Thank you so much for putting up the thread Liz! Of course I immediately came to visit and star it as soon as soon as I saw your message about it being up. I just at the moment started writing you privately about a tiny matter, but then decided it might be worth sharing with everyone that I didn't in fact listen to the audio version the first time, something I'll always remember very clearly, because at one point I literally threw the book (a perfectly nice softcover Vintage edition with a beautiful cover) across the room where it hit the wall and came bouncing back right at my feet, after which, thinking this was some kind of sign, I picked it right back up and continued reading, even if it had made me incredibly upset. As to the section that made me upset and why I reacted so strongly to it, I think it's best to leave off explaining till we actually get there. Mostly because my reaction had nothing to do with the novel, so much as being reminded of a personal experience as a youth which I would rather have left behind. I'll have plenty of time to decide whether it's appropriate to share more about it because that part comes rather late in the novel.

Another thing is I think you probably have a Folio edition up there, and whether yes or no it's a lovely one, but perhaps I could show the most recent FS edition I'll be reading from? It's really very gorgeous, with illustrations to die for, so if you don't mind I'll post a few images to show it off both from the Folio Society site* and perhaps also from photos I took of my own copy. I think instead of posting a whole bunch of images at once I'll add them at intervals to make the thread that much more visually appealing.



* I am not affiliated with FS in any commercial manner, other than being a dedicated member and certainly do NOT mention them here for personal gain.

3lyzard
tammikuu 6, 2014, 8:48 pm

Hi, Ilana! Good to see you here!

I own two copies of P&P, an old Penguin edition that is falling apart, and a copy which is part of the Folio Society "Complete Works Of Jane Austen" boxed set, as seen above.

Please feel free to show off your own FS edition as much as you like. :)

4Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 6, 2014, 9:03 pm

Liz, now I think of it, I also have a White's Fine Edition of it, which is also very lovely, though I am not certain I will keep it now. This is the cover of the aforementioned:



Please do share images of yours if you have them!

Oh yes, I should also say that I will start reading P&P tomorrow, probably at bedtime which is my usual reading-from-print-books time, so that I will probably only have questions and comments pertaining to the content of the book starting Wednesday I imagine. I know this won't be a problem since as you say, I determine the pace, but just letting you know.

5lyzard
tammikuu 6, 2014, 9:19 pm

Not a problem, Ilana.

My Folio edition is the same as the one shown above; my Penguin uses this cover image:

6SqueakyChu
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 12:03 am

*lurks for just a moment to peek into this thread*

7kiwiflowa
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 1:50 am

I will be following along this thread because I love P&P but mostly lurking.

However on the discussion on editions - I think I will buy a really nice edition the the folio one one day because it is one of my favourite books - but I bought a new edition recently only because of the cover (I think it's at least the 3rd P&P I own now) and I hope you don't mind if I share it - it cracked me up!!

8Helenliz
tammikuu 7, 2014, 1:53 am

I'll follow this thread, as P&P is this month's book group read and I've never got on with it. Don't know why, but I've never managed to understand them.

9lyzard
tammikuu 7, 2014, 2:02 am

>>#6

I hope you pop back in tomorrow, Madeleine, when the joint will be rocking!

>>#7

Oh, dear lord...!! :D

>>#8

Please feel free to participate, Helen, if you think it might help.

10Deern
tammikuu 7, 2014, 3:37 am

I won't read the book, but I'll follow the thread, looking forward to learning many new things about one of my all-time favorite novels!

11CDVicarage
tammikuu 7, 2014, 4:09 am

I shall be following. I have several editions of P&P, including an earlier Folio one, but I bet I'll be reading on my kindle!

12wandering_star
tammikuu 7, 2014, 5:53 am

Kiwiflora, what an amazing cover! I would have bought it too, no matter how many copies I already owned.

I have read P&P before and enjoyed it, but I look forward to following the tutored read too.

13gennyt
tammikuu 7, 2014, 6:19 am

#7 That cover is hilariously inappropriate - in a funny way it makes a nice change from all the ultra tasteful, restrained and modest style which is the norm for Austen!

14SqueakyChu
tammikuu 7, 2014, 10:09 am

> 9

Confession: I just requested this book on BookMooch. When it arrives, I'll be following this thread as a lurker.

15Nickelini
tammikuu 7, 2014, 10:39 am

I'm lurking too. Just finished rereading P&P using two different fully annotated gorgeous editions, and I also recently reread the Bitch in a Bonnet blog on P&P, which is quite a hoot. Definitely my favourite book.

Ilana - can you share with us your background on P&P so far? Have you seen any of the movies? Or Bridget Jones's Diary? What are your expectations of P&P. Just wondering. Now I'll return to my lurk position.

16lyzard
tammikuu 7, 2014, 2:10 pm

Welcome, all - great to have you along for the ride!

17Smiler69
tammikuu 7, 2014, 8:10 pm

Well, I finally decided to change my plans a little when I realized that reading P&P in bed just before going to sleep wasn't going to work since I'd be too sleepy and lazy at that time of day to want to take notes as I read. So I took some time this afternoon to read the first 5 chapters and am ready for the first round of comments and questions. First, a few comments on previous messages:

>6 SqueakyChu: & 14 Hi Madeline! You are of course most welcome to join in and I will make sure not to reveal any spoilers as we proceed, since I've read the book already once before and know all the plot developments.

>7 kiwiflowa: Lisa, I'm thrilled you posted that cover. "Lock Up Your Daughters... Darcy's in Town!". Hilarious! And he's smoking a cigarette, really?? Did they even have cigarette in those days? Lol. (I see on wikipedia they only started being manufactured in 1845, so, obviously no.)

>8 Helenliz: Welcome Helen. I originally asked Liz to tutor me for this book because I more or less hated it the first time I read it too, which made me very wary of Jane Austen, but then Liz made me absolutely LOVE Emma, so I figured she could do the same for this novel too. Not to put too much pressure on Liz, obviously.

>10 Deern: Hi Nathalie, now I'm starting to feel the pressure of wanting to do a really good job as a tutee so everyone gets something out of this!

>11 CDVicarage: Welcome Kerry, this Folio edition is the third I own of this book. Not bad for a book I hated the first time!

>12 wandering_star: Hi wandering star

>13 gennyt: Hi Genny, agreed it makes for quite a change. I'm sure there most be other highly inappropriate covers for Jane Austen books considering how long they've been around. If anyone has interesting covers designs for this book they'd like to share here I'd love to see them!

>15 Nickelini: Hi Joyce, nice to know who'll be lurking in the shadows. Let me get this straight, you used two editions at the same time? I'd be curious to know what editions they were. I remember visiting Bitch in a Bonnet a while back and finding it hilarious. I'll have to go see what he has to say about P&P for sure!

I'm happy to share my background on this novel. I first read it in the course of the Austenathon in 2011, during which all 6 major Austen novels were being read in publication order. I thought this would be the perfect opportunity for me to get acquainted with Austen, since I'd never read her before and had refused to watch the movies for a long time. I'm not sure why, but I had this idea she was prissy and annoying and silly and uncool, all leftover impressions from my years as an angry teenager. I can't say I much liked the first book, Sense and Sensibility, and I was hoping to find discussions on the Austenathon threads allowing for my cynical view of things to be aired and discussed, but all I remember was everyone participating was gushing about how wonderful she was (in all fairness, I did learn a lot by following the threads), but most of my comments were more or less dismissed. Here is what I had to say about S&S in my review at the time:

This was my first Jane Austen novel and I was at first immediately charmed by her irony and the witty dialogue, in particular when describing the unpleasant Fanny Dashwood and other secondary characters, such as Edward's fiancée Lucy Steele. But the drama! The bitter disappointments! The dashed hopes which are magically restored! It was too much like a soap opera for me and I couldn't help but groan and wish for zombies to come in and bite people's heads off, even though zombies really aren't my thing. Will I read more Austen novels? Yes, I plan on reading Pride and Prejudice next. Am I likely to be counted among Austen's legions of devoted fans? Not likely, if I don't find a stronger injection of irony thrown into the mix. But one can always hope.

So that's the mindset I went into P&P with, and I remember it mostly getting on my nerves. Someone recommended I watch the movie with Keira Knightley which I rather liked and helped me appreciate the novel a bit more.

I read Bridget Jones's Diary in the late 90s and saw the movie in the cinema, but as I hadn't read P&P or any Austen at that point, I missed all the references to it. I'd say I might reread it, but don't think I will since I doubt I'll enjoy BJD the second time around as much as I did the first time.

As far as expectations go, I imagine my hope is that Liz will be able to help me find and appreciate whatever layers of humour and irony I may have missed the first time around, though I should say that having taken a tutorial with her previously on Persuasion and followed her tutoring Madeline for Emma, I think I have a better appreciation for Austen's brand of humour already.

Right. Now I think I'm ready for the tutorial to begin in earnest.

18Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 9:16 pm

VOLUME 1

Chapters 1 to 4


In which the Bennet matriarch gets excited about the rich young Bingley's arrival in the neighbourhood, a party is held where the unpleasant Darcy snubs our heroine and makes himself generally disagreeable to all, and sisters Elizabeth and Jane agree Bingley is a dreamboat.

A few general comments about the book:

My edition states that "This edition follows the text of the first edition, retaining the often idiosyncratic and inconsistent spelling of the original." I love that.

My edition is also introduced by Sebastian Faulks. Normally I only read the introductions after I've finished the books because they usually contain spoilers, but since this is my second time around, I indulged this time. A few things Faulks said held my interest, but I noted down a couple in particular:

About Austen's approach to narration:

"As we proceed, we find events are related partly by an omniscient but invisible narrator, sometimes through Elizabeth's eyes, once or twice through Darcy's, sometimes by the author, who periodically breaks through the realistic frame—and occasionally by a voice that seems porous, that allows itself for a moment to take on the diction of some of the minor characters and so suggests a kind of unreliability.
This inconsistency of viewpoint helps make the characters vital and believable... The Changing way in which the story is told allows us to feel part of an unpredictable process."


On Darcy:

"Bingley suggests his friend is the victim of a morbid melancholy: 'I declare I do not know a more aweful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening when he has nothing to do.' But Darcy seldom has anything to do. He sportingly suggests Elizabeth's uncle go fishing on his estate at Pemberley, but never picks up a rod himself.
A good deal of Darcy's behaviour becomes more explicable if we view him as suffering from a kind of clinical depression."


But I won't comment about this portion any more than that and move on to Chapter 1.

eta: so far have only read till chapter 4, not 5, as I had previously indicated.

19lyzard
tammikuu 7, 2014, 8:48 pm

Not to put too much pressure on Liz, obviously.

Yeah, thanks for that. :)

One thing I would say about Austen's happy endings and restored dashed hopes is that they're the sugar coating around a fairly bitter pill. Her novels are as critical of her world as a female author could get away with being at the time, and the way she got away with it was to use an ironic voice that made it sound as if she didn't really mean it (when you bet she meant it!), and by they-lived-happily-ever-after endings that allowed her books to be comfortably dismissed as "just romances". Which STILL happens.

20casvelyn
tammikuu 7, 2014, 8:54 pm

If Austen's novels were "just romance" I wouldn't like them at all, I don't think.

I'll be reading along as well, probably starting tomorrow or Thursday. I've read P&P at least twice before, and I love it. (My favorite Austen is the under-appreciated Mansfield Park, though.) I'm using my Everyman's Library edition.

21Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 9:43 pm

Volume 1, Chapter 1

1. I wish my book contained a map of England and the various houses and spots in the story. Can you tell me where in England the Bennet family and Netherfield are?

2. What is a chaise and four?

3. Do we know what social class the Bennets belong to? Or where their revenue comes from? Or what constitutes their property?

4. Here is an exchange that made me smile the first time and will no doubt continue to do so with every reading:

"Mr. Bennet, how can you abuse your own children in such a way? You take delight in vexing me. You have no compassion for my poor nerves."
"You mistake me, my dear. I have a high respect for your nerves. They are my old friends. I have heard you mention them with consideration these last twenty years at least."


(I quote for the Project Gutenberg text, which is obviously Americanised)



Volume 1, Chapter 2

5. Could you clarify the part in bold in the following exchanges:

"Aye, so it is," cried her mother, "and Mrs. Long does not come back till the day before; so it will be impossible for her to introduce him, for she will not know him herself."
"Then, my dear, you may have the advantage of your friend, and introduce Mr. Bingley to her."
"Impossible, Mr. Bennet, impossible, when I am not acquainted with him myself; how can you be so teasing?"
"I honour your circumspection. A fortnight's acquaintance is certainly very little. One cannot know what a man really is by the end of a fortnight. But if we do not venture somebody else will; and after all, Mrs. Long and her nieces must stand their chance; and, therefore, as she will think it an act of kindness, if you decline the office, I will take it on myself."

"What can be the meaning of that emphatic exclamation?" cried he. "Do you consider the forms of introduction, and the stress that is laid on them, as nonsense? I cannot quite agree with you there. What say you, Mary? For you are a young lady of deep reflection, I know, and read great books and make extracts."


6. "What an excellent father you have, girls!" said she, when the door was shut. "I do not know how you will ever make him amends for his kindness; or me, either, for that matter. At our time of life it is not so pleasant, I can tell you, to be making new acquaintances every day; but for your sakes, we would do anything. Lydia, my love, though you are the youngest, I dare say Mr. Bingley will dance with you at the next ball."

Does that comment stem from a common belief or just Mrs Bennet's point of view?

7. "Oh!" said Lydia stoutly, "I am not afraid; for though I am the youngest, I'm the tallest."

What does her height have to do with anything?



22Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 9:44 pm

Volume 1, Chapter 3

8. "He was quite young, wonderfully handsome, extremely agreeable, and, to crown the whole, he meant to be at the next assembly with a large party. Nothing could be more delightful! To be fond of dancing was a certain step towards falling in love; and very lively hopes of Mr. Bingley's heart were entertained."

Was this a commonly held belief or just a silly girlish notion?

9. "In a few days Mr. Bingley returned Mr. Bennet's visit, and sat about ten minutes with him in his library. He had entertained hopes of being admitted to a sight of the young ladies, of whose beauty he had heard much; but he saw only the father. The ladies were somewhat more fortunate, for they had the advantage of ascertaining from an upper window that he wore a blue coat, and rode a black horse."

I find that paragraph quite delightful, though I couldn't say why exactly. That image of the women having to gather tightly together round a window to get their first glimpse of Mr Bingley maybe... but why doesn't he get to introduce himself to the women?

10. "but his friend Mr. Darcy soon drew the attention of the room by his fine, tall person, handsome features, noble mien, and the report which was in general circulation within five minutes after his entrance, of his having ten thousand a year."

How is it possible that this information about his income is known publicly? What would ten thousand a year represents today?

11. "They found Mr. Bennet still up. With a book he was regardless of time; and on the present occasion he had a good deal of curiosity as to the event of an evening which had raised such splendid expectations. He had rather hoped that his wife's views on the stranger would be disappointed; but he soon found out that he had a different story to hear."

Why?

12. "First of all, he asked Miss Lucas. I was so vexed to see him stand up with her! But, however, he did not admire her at all; indeed, nobody can, you know; and he seemed quite struck with Jane as she was going down the dance. So he inquired who she was, and got introduced, and asked her for the two next. Then the two third he danced with Miss King, and the two fourth with Maria Lucas, and the two fifth with Jane again, and the two sixth with Lizzy, and the Boulanger—"

Explain please?



Volume 1, Chapter 4

13. When Jane and Elizabeth were alone, the former, who had been cautious in her praise of Mr. Bingley before, expressed to her sister just how very much she admired him.
"He is just what a young man ought to be," said she, "sensible, good-humoured, lively; and I never saw such happy manners!—so much ease, with such perfect good breeding!"
"He is also handsome," replied Elizabeth, "which a young man ought likewise to be, if he possibly can. His character is thereby complete."


How charming that Elizabeth considers looks to form part of a man's character. I must say I often made that mistake too... and regretted it almost every time.

14. "They were rather handsome, had been educated in one of the first private seminaries in town"

What kind of education would this have consisted in? Or be equivalent to today?

15. "They were of a respectable family in the north of England; a circumstance more deeply impressed on their memories than that their brother's fortune and their own had been acquired by trade.

I'm not sure whether I knew this before and forgot (likely) but didn't remember that the industrial revolution began as early as the 1760s (according to wikipedia), and I learned from Elizabeth Gaskell's novel North and South that the North part of England was known for it's many factories, so was going to ask what kind of trade they would have made their fortune in a pre-industrial age. Do we know what kind of trade all the same, or what your best guess might be?

16. I've indicated a few things in bold in the following:

Mr. Bingley inherited property to the amount of nearly a hundred thousand pounds from his father, who had intended to purchase an estate, but did not live to do it. Mr. Bingley intended it likewise, and sometimes made choice of his county; but as he was now provided with a good house and the liberty of a manor, it was doubtful to many of those who best knew the easiness of his temper, whether he might not spend the remainder of his days at Netherfield, and leave the next generation to purchase.
His sisters were anxious for his having an estate of his own; but, though he was now only established as a tenant, Miss Bingley was by no means unwilling to preside at his table—nor was Mrs. Hurst, who had married a man of more fashion than fortune, less disposed to consider his house as her home when it suited her. Mr. Bingley had not been of age two years, when he was tempted by an accidental recommendation to look at Netherfield House.


I don't quite understand his living arrangements. Why did it take so long for his father to buy an estate that he died before he could do so? What and where are this house and manor and why does he need another then? What sort of living accommodations are there at Netherfield? Why leave the next generation to purchase?

I love the comment about Mrs Hurst being happy to consider his house as her home, though she is a married woman!

At what age was a man considered of legal age? Was a woman ever of age?

23Smiler69
tammikuu 7, 2014, 9:43 pm

Whew! I think the formatting took me longer than typing the questions did! But I think it's clearer that way. Or so I hope.

24lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 7, 2014, 11:55 pm

Good grief!!

(Or "Good heavens!", as we would say in the context of Trollope...)

Chapter 1

1. We are in Hertfordshire, which is a county that sits just to the north of London and its environs.

2. A chaise (pronounced "shay") could be either a small, two-person carriage with a folding hood meant for local driving, or an enclosed travelling carriage; the "and four" indicates the latter, a carriage with four horses, which suggests both a journey of some distance and also a higher income.

3. Mr Bennet belongs to the landed gentry, albeit in a small way. Mrs Bennet, we learn, married up; she has relatives in trade. However, the girls take their social status chiefly from their father and are therefore regarded as gentlewomen.

Longbourn is a country house in its own grounds, surrounded by the farming lands from which the family derives its income. It is respectable but not impressive.

4. We will all become well acquainted with Mrs Bennet's nerves. :)

Chapter 2

5a. Mr Bennet is teasing his wife by withholding the news that he is himself acquainted with Mr Bingley, that he can therefore introduce him to her, and that she in turn will be able to introduce him to Mrs Long (these rituals were VERY important). Instead, he chooses to interpret her literal statement that she is "not acquainted" (meaning socially) with him as indicating that you cannot be acquainted (i.e. really know someone) in so short a time as two weeks.

5b. To make extracts was to copy passages from a book that were particularly meaningful or impressive. In this case we get the impression that it is one of the things Mary does to show off her learning.

6. Mrs Bennet is making it sound as if she is making a great personal sacrifice by ensuring Mr Bingley's acquaintance, as if she'd spend all her time at home instead of putting herself out by going to parties and chaperoning the girls: "For your sakes we would do anything." Mr Bennet would no doubt rather stay home, but Mrs Bennet is just using the girls as an excuse.

7. It makes her seem older than she is. Lydia is only fifteen and should not be "out" - that is, attending formal social events. That she allowed to do so is indicative of careless parenting.

Chapter 3

8. Marriages were indeed made in the ballroom; this is one of the reasons everyone in these novels is so obsessed with parties and whether there will be dancing. The nature of the dances of the day meant that a man and a woman would "stand up" together for about half an hour, during which time they could essentially have a private conversation and/or flirt. A young man being an enthusiastic dancer could be taken as a sign that he was looking for romance (or at least, it could be interpreted that way by hopeful mothers and eager daughters).

9. First visits were brief, and made man-to-man. Mr Bingley is returning Mr Bennet's call, and therefore sees only him. Mr Bingley could certainly not introduce himself to the girls; he has to wait for Mr Bennet to introduce him once he has been "approved". We note that Mr Bingley has hopes that the rules will be bent and he might at least see the girls, but for once Mr Bennet keeps a hard line (mostly to tease his womenfolk, we suspect).

10. Socially speaking, everything was known about everybody. Who married who, and who was related to who, was reported in newspapers and published in books. Large estates were tourist attractions.

Mr Darcy, we later learn, is connected to the aristocracy through his mother, while through his father he has inherited a spectacular private estate. He's a marriage catch of the highest order. All his business would have been very well known.

It can be hard to translate 19th century incomes into modern terms, but we might estimate that his ten thousand a year would be worth around five hundred thousand pounds a year now.

11. Partly because he gets his kicks out of teasing her, as we've seen, partly because if Bingley is a viable marital prospect the family's whole life will begin to revolve around socialising and throwing the girls in his way.

12. Much (though not all) of the dancing at this time was done in "sets" (see also #8 above). Close contact dances like the waltz did not arrive in England until later in the decade and took their time being "approved" in the country, so in these scenes you must imagine more formal, figured dancing where the dancers line up in "sets" and take turns going from one end of the line to the other in a series of standard movements. The more people in a set, the longer it all took - and the longer a man and woman could or had to) talk together while waiting.

Dancing like this was done in lots of two, going through one pre-determined set of figures, and then another "set" with different figures; essentially a man was asking a woman for two consecutive dances. There were a certain number of dances in any evening, hence Mrs Bennet's referral to the "two third", "two fourth" and so on.

Chapter 4

13. Don't take the things Lizzie says too seriously; we will find out soon enough her real views on the subject. Here, she is indirectly praising Jane for not considering Bingley's looks important enough to mention.

14. Female education - or rather "education" - would be concentrated upon "accomplishments" rather than knowledge: languages, music and drawing, certainly, but also deportment and conduct. "Real" subjects were considered less important for women and only very specialised academies would have provided more than a superficial knowledge of mathematics, science, geography and history. The business of most seminaries was to make "young ladies", not educated women.

15. I don't think the specific kind of trade is ever mentioned (and certainly the sisters would have discouraged all mention of it), but as you point out, that mention of "the north" suggests something like the Manchester cotton industry.

16. Because of the way the family money was made, Mr Bingley Sr would have been buying the family's first country home - a sign that you'd "made it". Some people who became wealthy in trade, however, felt that they "ought" to have a country estate rather than really wanted one or felt they were up to the task of running one. The present Mr Bingley (now two generations away from the actual business of making money) has presumably had a gentleman's education and intends to live like a country gentleman, but he is in the same position his father was, in having no specific ties to the country to help him select an estate.

He has now gotten as far as renting Netherfield Park. The "house" is the actual home he lives in, whereas "manor" indicates that the property gives him a particular social status and associated privileges (the manor was the basis of the old English feudal system, where the peasants "belonged" to the lord of the manor). In this case it might mean he has hunting rights over the attached land, or receives an income from leasing out his grounds. His sisters wants him to buy a property in order to "anchor" his social standing (and theirs), but Mr Bingley isn't much fussed about things like that; he just wants to be comfortable.

A man came of age at twenty-one, so Bingley isn't quite twenty-three. A woman also came of age at twenty-one, but although this gave her certain legal rights (like marrying without her parents' consent) and might mean her receiving of an inheritance, realistically it didn't make much change to her circumstances.

25lyzard
tammikuu 7, 2014, 11:53 pm

Phew!!

26Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 8, 2014, 1:33 am

Well, I was going to put off starting P&P, but you've done such a great job so far I feel the need to get right to it.

27Nickelini
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 8, 2014, 2:06 am

Somehow I duplicated the post when I added the ETA below. Sorry.

28Nickelini
tammikuu 8, 2014, 1:53 am

Let me get this straight, you used two editions at the same time? I'd be curious to know what editions they were.

Even sadder--I read it twice in a row. That's how addicted to this novel I am. I wouldn't recommend using these annotated editions for the first time reading this novel, but they work great for later readings. First I used the Annotated Pride and Prejudice, edited by David Shapard. It is a nice trade paperback with text on the left side and annotations and drawings on the right. There is also a helpful timeline of the novel (where you can clearly see that events unfold over the course of a year), and also some helpful maps. Then I read Pride and Prejudice: an Annotated Edition, edited by Patricia Meyer Spacks. This one is a large coffee table hard cover and it's gorgeous. It's big and heavy though--I had to read it at a table--no taking this one to read on the train. Lots of colour illustrations, moire end papers . . . would make a perfect gift for the P&P lover in your life. Here's the cover:



ETA: as for Bitch in a Bonnet--it looks like he's taken the bulk of P&P off his blog, but it's published in book form, and of course I own that too. I don't agree with all his insights, but sometimes he is so spot on and hilarious.

29Deern
tammikuu 8, 2014, 5:10 am

Wow, I already learned some new things here.

I just bought the Bitch in a Bonnet on Kindle for 1,79 - I think it's just 0,99 for US customers. His comments on chapters 1-5 are still available on the blog, but the rest has been published as book since my last visit there years ago. I liked his comments on the relationship of the Bennet parents.

30Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 8, 2014, 8:37 am

I just read his analysis of the first 5 chapters. His description of Mr. And Mrs. Bennet is priceless:
The Bennet home is if anything a kind of capital-B Bedlam, with Mrs. Bennet as the chief lunatic and her husband the sadistic warden who keeps poking her with a stick through the grate.

31CDVicarage
tammikuu 8, 2014, 8:53 am

I have just bought Bitch in a Bonnet, too. It's 75p in UK.

32Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 8, 2014, 12:35 pm

I'm on chapter 6, and the word stupid has now been used a couple of times. Is this a more modern translation, or did people in the 18th century call people and things stupid?

33Smiler69
tammikuu 8, 2014, 12:45 pm

>24 lyzard: Good grief!!

>25 lyzard: Phew!!

Aw go on Liz, you know you love it the more we throw at you! :-)

So if I get this right, Darcy is actually 'old money' whereas Bingley is basically a second generation 'nouveau riche'. Do we know how the two became friends? I don't remember that part.

Five hundred thousand pounds a year sounds like a huge amount of money, but then nowadays heads of corporations make several millions, if not tens of millions, so... it's all relative.

This question of 'deportment' really intrigues me because I'm also reading Bleak House at the moment, with the famous Old Mr Turveydrop, master of deportment. So what did deportment mean in the context of teaching it to girls in seminaries and the sort Mr Turveydrop means, since he several times makes clear deportment is something you are born with? (I just had to go to the wikipedia page to help me recall his name and though I tried very hard not to read more than absolutely necessary, think I just landed on a major spoiler for BH all the same. Boo!)

34Smiler69
tammikuu 8, 2014, 12:52 pm

>28 Nickelini: Now I have to ask you of course how many times you've read P&P by now, if you're still counting that is! Those two books sound interesting and the latter must be beautiful. I will look up the library catalogue to see if they have them.

...

YES! They have both! I'll have to borrow them both, but I think I'll request the one edited by Patricia Meyer Spacks for now if only to have it sit on my coffee table for a while. :-)

Bitch in a Bonnet: I guess it makes sense he's taken off the bulk of the P&P material from the blog if he's got a book out.

>29 Deern: Nathalie, thanks for mentioning how cheap the Kindle version is. I don't currently own an iPad as I just sold mine (just gotten this summer) so I can upgrade (long story) and have yet to order the new one, but I've gotten the ebook all the same, for, yes, $0.99

>30 Citizenjoyce: That's pretty funny!

>32 Citizenjoyce: Oops, I see you're running ahead of me there! I haven't gotten to that part yet, hold your horses! :-)

35lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 8, 2014, 3:14 pm

I want to come back to the Bennet marriage, but I'll start by addressing these other points-in-passing:

>>#32

Joyce, when you post can you please mark the chapters you are referring to in bold for easier spotting or reference? Also, please be careful that your questioning doesn't outrun where Ilana has indicated she is up to. It doesn't matter in this case as you are simply asking for clarification of word usage, but in general we want to avoid anything that might be spoileriffic. Thanks!

It's the other way around: "stupid" was a common word at the time but it was generally used a little less harshly than they the way we use it now, often meaning just "inadequate".

>>#33

Yes, that's right. It's a mark in Darcy's favour, and one that's not often made much of: he's not a snob. (Though Bingley is third generation; it was his grandfather who made the money.) I don't think we do know how the two became friends in the first place, but possibly through the acquaintance of their fathers - or perhaps through a coincidence like having the same tutor.

It was a very large sum of money for a private gentleman, though many of the aristocrats of the days had far larger incomes. Of course, that is his income per annum, from his property, as opposed to the twenty thousand pounds that we hear the Bingley sisters had as a dowry, which would be a single lump sum.

Deportment was how you carried yourself - how you walked, how you danced, how you sat, how you curtseyed, how you held your head. These things were drilled into girls in particular from an early age, though boys also had dancing and other lessons, like how to bow. My Turveydrop might like to think he was "born" with perfect deportment but really it was the outcome of hard work - though of course some people might have more physical "aptness" for the task.

Regency children began dancing lessons at an early age because they would need that skill as young adults, because it was good exercise, and because it was a fun way of learning the first lessons in controlling their movements.

(Boo for spoilers! You can ask any questions like that here, if you need to.)

36Nickelini
tammikuu 8, 2014, 3:16 pm

Now I have to ask you of course how many times you've read P&P by now, if you're still counting that is!

Officially, only 3 times, though I've dipped in and out more, and read tons about it. I have, however, lost track of how many times I've watched the 1995 film version (which, by the way, is the perfect partner for the book). If you don't have time to watch the whole 5 or 6 hours, someone has whittled it down to 10 minutes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zApKD4CFUjQ&list=FLWd7UeV-rb5aAUSlHJADNJA It's really just 10 min of Darcy porn. I saw a comment on this where someone said "I've never seen this movie, but I take it that Darcy is some sort of creepy stalker?"

Re: post # 18 - interesting "spoiler" on Darcy. I'd never thought of that angle before. Not sure I agree, but I'm thinking about it.

37lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 3:28 pm

To return to the Bennet marriage---

I think too often in the reading of this novel, there is a tendency to blame everything on Mrs Bennet and to give Mr Bennet a free pass, because she's annoying and he's funny - and increasingly, because he appreciates Elizabeth and she doesn't.

But it's important that we don't miss Austen's underlying points here. As she always does, while her heroines are trying to sort out their lives and work out want they want, in the background we are provided with a range of life-choices that act as models or as cautionary tales.

To put it at its simplest, Mr Bennet is in the situation he is in because he chose to marry a very silly woman with a pretty face.

And having done so, it was his responsibility to step up and take care of her and their children, because clearly she wasn't up to the job. Instead he has retreated into his own little world and abrogated many of his responsibilities, including the overriding responsibility to provide for his daughters by way of a dowry. He has also allowed the girls to pretty much do as they like in terms of education and conduct.

Mrs Bennet is, to use the word of the day, a "stupid" woman, yes, but at least, albeit in an embarrassingly wrongheaded manner, she is trying to provide for her daughters. The situation in which the family finds itself, and much of what goes wrong for them over the course of the novel, can be laid at Mr Bennet's feet.

38lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 3:30 pm

I'm an iconoclast: I prefer the 1980 BBC adaptation with Elizabeth Garvie and David Rintoul. I think it's better cast and closer to the spirit of the novel.

39katiekrug
tammikuu 8, 2014, 3:58 pm

Delurking to say "Thank you, Liz" for post #37. Similar points were made by my English teacher who guided me through my first reading of the novel back in high school, and I've always remembered them but felt like the film adaptations and general discussions of the book often miss the point about Mr. Bennett.

40lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 4:03 pm

Hi, Katie - thanks for joining us. Obviously, I agree with your teacher about the misinterpretation of Mr Bennet. :)

41CDVicarage
tammikuu 8, 2014, 4:12 pm

It took me more than one reading before I changed my mind about Mr. Bennett and now I've got grown-up children I have considerably more sympathy for Mrs. B. (Not that I'm trying to marry off either of my children!)

42Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 8, 2014, 4:30 pm

I tried to look at your lovely Darcy porn, OtherJoyce, and it says it's blocked in my country - the US. Boo. I'll admit it, that's mr favorite P&P and Colin Firth stole my heart.
I also found the Darcy spoiler tantalizing.
As for the harsher views of Mr. Bennet (he certainly came off more obviously flawed in Longbourn) do you think the internalization of feminism accounts for our ability to see that the wife is not the sole cause of a bad marriage?

43lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 8, 2014, 4:40 pm

I think the opposite: I think Austen's contemporary readers (particularly her female readers) would have seen what she was getting at; it's the more modern readings of that marriage that tend to superficiality, and blame it all on Mrs Bennet. As Katie points out, most of the recent adaptations have done that without too many qualms and without much subtlety.

It was dogma at the time that the success or failure of a marriage was on the wife's shoulders, but given the distribution of power the reality was quite different.

44Nickelini
tammikuu 8, 2014, 6:50 pm

Back to the P&P cover in post #7 -- I had to buy that edition too. Pulp the Classics! Has a whole series. Along with P&P, their Wuthering Heights and Tess of the D'urbervilles are my favourites. The Tess cover has Marilyn Monroe and the description makes Tess out to be quite the slut.

The back of the P&P is funny too --- "Mrs Bennet is on a mission to marry off her five daughters to rich men. . . . Enter, Mr Charles Bingley and his rather fit friend, Darcy. . . . LOVE, LOATHING & BITTERSWEET ROMANCE follow . . . "

45Nickelini
tammikuu 8, 2014, 7:00 pm

Mr Bennet is rather likeable in all the film versions I've seen, but I've never liked him when I read the book. He makes me want to shake him!

OtherJoyce -- sorry the video didn't work!

46lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 7:02 pm

That's exactly the point, Joyce - he's not being correctly interpreted on the screen, but being let off too lightly.

47Nickelini
tammikuu 8, 2014, 7:04 pm

but being let off too lightly.

Definitely. Also, as much as Mrs Bennet is everything that she is (!), not everything she says is wrong or stupid. That's what I love about Austen characters--like real people, they are never entirely bad or entirely good.

48lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 7:08 pm

Agreed! And yes, at the same time Mrs Bennet tends to get turned into a caricature. She's annoying, granted, but that doesn't make her necessarily wrong.

49Smiler69
tammikuu 8, 2014, 10:50 pm

Just dropping by to say I'll be back tomorrow with my next round of questions. It's been a long day and I didn't have a chance to do any reading at all, so I will 'bring it' tomorrow. Will also look closer at everyone's contributions since my last visit.

50lyzard
tammikuu 8, 2014, 10:57 pm

Thanks fine, Ilana.

If anyone else has questions or comments about the first four chapters, please feel free.

51Smiler69
tammikuu 8, 2014, 11:31 pm

I'll read a chapter or two before bed, and then more tomorrow, so I expect I'll have a decent list of questions for you sometime in the latter part of the day. You are such a wonderful tutor, I've missed it!

52Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 8, 2014, 11:50 pm

oops, double posted, so here's an image of Mrs Bennet to fill this spot (from the 2013 Folio Society edition, illustrated by the Balbusso Twins):

53kiwiflowa
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 1:41 am

I agree with the comments about Mr Bennet and that he should have more of the blame for his family's predicament and conduct than he seems to get. I blame the BBC miniseries version (which I love and have watched countless times) the actor who played Mrs Bennet with all that screeching played the role so well and exaggerated the flaws of the character. People instantly dislike or are annoyed by her. Every time I watch the movie and they get to the scene where Mr Bennet has met Mr Bingley and announces it and Mrs Bennet screeches my fiance shudders. He's won't even watching it lol. There's another part in the BBC series which I actually sometimes skip out of courtesy to his ears, but I won't mention it until we get up to that part in the book.

54DejaVoo
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 11, 2023, 9:13 am

Viestin kirjoittaja on poistanut viestin.

55lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 3:25 pm

>>#51

"A decent list of questions" - I'm quaking in my boots already! :)

Thanks, Ilana, I've missed it too.

>>#52

Post as many of those as you like!

>>#53

Agree from start to finish, Lisa! The interpretation of Mrs Bennet is one of the issues I have with that particular adaptation, much too over-the-top.

>>#54

Hello, Nicki - welcome! Please add any comments of your own, if you like, following the posting rules up in #1.

I'm a one-book-at-a-time reader, too. :)

56Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 9, 2014, 9:05 pm

Well, I don't know if this applies to P&P, perhaps I've read it more in books about previous centuries, but when there is a banquet and jellies are included, what does that mean? People didn't just eat plain fruit jelly did they? I know, silly question, but it always gets me whenever I read it, and I was sure the great and powerful lyzard would know.

57lyzard
tammikuu 9, 2014, 9:27 pm

The great and powerful lyzard is hiding behind a curtain, terrified someone will pull it back and expose her... :)

As far as I understand it, jellies were exactly that, but made out of self- (or cook-) extracted natural gelatine. The gelatine was then mixed with sugar or syrup, fruit juice and pieces of fruit and set in a mould. A more "adult" version would use sweet wine, either white or port. They could be simple, individual desserts or huge, elaborate structures with careful fruit layering and contrasting colours and shapes. Also, from the 18th century onwards there was a wide variety of different mould-shapes available, not just decorative but in the shape of things like famous public buildings.

58Smiler69
tammikuu 9, 2014, 9:50 pm

>56 Citizenjoyce:-57 I suppose people in the 23rd century might find it strange that we used to eat Jello-O (not that I have since decades ago on some fad diet), which I guess is the less elegant descendant of those jellies.

59lyzard
tammikuu 9, 2014, 9:55 pm

Powdered gelatine and proper refrigeration. I suppose jelly stopped being a fashionable dessert when it stopped taking two days' work to get it ready.

60Smiler69
tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:09 pm

>36 Nickelini: Joyce, I would have thought you'd read it a dozen times already, but I imagine you will do so over time. I know I got this deluxe edition with the firm intention of learning to love this novel and returning to it again and again for some sort of comfort. If comfort can be found there. I watched the video till 2:45 and then couldn't go on, because the music was about to make me sob and cry. I don't know about Darcy, because I dislike him quite strongly, but Colin Firth is another matter altogether and might make me learn to like the character in a manner I had never imagined I would before. I haven't seen that version of P&P yet, so will have to rent that one from the library too, along with the 1985 BBC version Liz is fond of which I already reserved yesterday.

>42 Citizenjoyce: (other) Joyce, I got Longbourn on audio shortly after it was released, knowing I would be doing this tutorial around this time, and wanted to hold off so I'd have P&P fresh in my mind. Guess what I'll be listening to after I'm done here? :-)

Regarding the discussion about the responsibility in the marriage, it's all a little bit above my head at the moment, while I'm still groping with the abcs of the novel, but I have to admit that I greatly enjoy his wickedness from where I sit as a reader, though I wouldn't like it so much as a member of his family having to suffer the consequences of his lack of responsibility.

>54 DejaVoo: Hi Nicky, lovely to see you here! You are absolutely welcome to join along with this thread and with the 75ers group as well. Just be warned about that latter that things are much more intense over here than what you have experienced over at the Folio Society Devotees group, in the sense that most members here tend to have their individual threads which far outnumber the communal threads, which makes keeping up near to impossible. I managed it a few times, when I basically spent my entire days in front of the computer, but it's otherwise a feat rarely accomplished if you mean to participate in conversations in any meaningful way. But far from me to want to put you off because there are some truly amazing individuals here and the positive and friendly atmosphere is always so refreshing.

The Woman in White is now among my favourites of all time after reading (listening, actually, with multiple narrators) it for the first time last year I believe (?)—just checked, it was actually 2012, which means I'm due for a reread. :-)

61Smiler69
tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:10 pm

>59 lyzard: Yes, and being known as a staple of hospital food doesn't help it's image either...

62Smiler69
tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:11 pm

Ok, will start typing my questions, but as I'll have to take a break to finish making a batch of rice pudding, it might take a little while. More comments than questions I think though.

63lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:16 pm

The thing to keep in mind about Darcy is that for most of the book we're seeing him through other people's eyes; not that he is without significant flaws of his own to work on, but we shouldn't confuse those with what other people think they know about him.

I greatly enjoy his wickedness from where I sit as a reader, though I wouldn't like it so much as a member of his family having to suffer the consequences of his lack of responsibility.

Yes, that's exactly right.

Saved by the rice pudding!

64Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:43 pm

Volume 1, Chapter 5

17. "Sir William Lucas had been formerly in trade in Meryton, where he had made a tolerable fortune, and risen to the honour of knighthood by an address to the king during his mayoralty."

I'm not sure why he was deserving of a knighthood for making a speech. And here's a tidbit that always makes me smile:

"he had removed with his family to a house about a mile from Meryton, denominated from that period Lucas Lodge, where he could think with pleasure of his own importance"


Another succulent morsel:

"Lady Lucas was a very good kind of woman, not too clever to be a valuable neighbour to Mrs. Bennet."


19. Why does Jane Austen refrain from making any comments about the fact of Charlotte being twenty seven and still living at home, by now a very old maid? I know that she reveals her state plainly enough from her conversation and eventual actions, but still, it seems interesting to me that there is no editorial comment from the get-go.

(rice pudding calls, will be back with more shortly)

65lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:33 pm

Chapter 5

17. Well, the bestowing of honours was always a bit peculiar...although I here we can probably infer that he was being rewarded for services performed (real or perceived) that resulted in him being given the opportunity to make that speech and thus bring himself to the attention of royalty.

19. There was no need for Austen to comment; contemporary readers would have understood the situation perfectly. If Charlotte was unmarried she would, naturally, be living at home; and despite what many 19th century authors would have us believe (mostly male, but not all), the reality of life in England at this time is that many women would never have a chance to marry. Due to England being at war for ten years at this point and other factors, there was a huge surplus of women. (It has always been infuriating to me that this basic mathematical point was rarely acknowledged, nor the consequent need for many woman to find a earn of income other than a husband.) The dog-eat-dog fallout of this imbalance is another reason why novels of this time are so obsessed with marriage.

Charlotte's situation is rather comparable with Austen's own, we should note.

66Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:48 pm

17. Hmmm... I remain unconvinced there.

19. Yes, same situation only Charlotte marries, whereas Jane Austen obviously didn't.

Liz, do you think I should go on numbering the sections I simply post here as a highlight, as in 18, or not? I just saw now with your response that the jump from 17 to 19 made me think something had been skipped.

67lyzard
tammikuu 9, 2014, 10:50 pm

Basically, anyone who stuck around in public life long enough usually attracted honours of one kind or another: the then-Mr Lucas lucked out and got a knighthood.

Yes, but Austen had the chance to marry a man she didn't love, became briefly engaged to him, then broke it off because she found she couldn't go through with it. Evidently she was less desperate than Charlotte.

The numbering is fine; my numbering simply indicates which of your comments I'm responding to, for ease of reference.

68Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 9, 2014, 11:23 pm

Volume 1, Chapter 5 (cont'd)

20. Just another quote which I know will make me smile at every reread:
"I beg you would not put it into Lizzy's head to be vexed by his ill-treatment, for he is such a disagreeable man, that it would be quite a misfortune to be liked by him."

21. "everybody says that he is ate up with pride"

Was this a common manner of speaking within their social class?

22. Is Mary's speech about pride poking fun at the didactic novels which you mention in your intro?

23. "The boy protested that she should not; she continued to declare that she would, and the argument ended only with the visit."

Is this indicative of the fact that the boy lacks proper discipline?



Volume 1, Chapter 6

24. "there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really in love without encouragement"

What does this say about Charlotte, or indeed about JA?

25. ""Your plan is a good one," replied Elizabeth, "where nothing is in question but the desire of being well married, and if I were determined to get a rich husband, or any husband, I dare say I should adopt it."

This of course is the position Charlotte finds herself in. How can Elizabeth be so insensitive as to make that comment then?

26. "Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life."

Do you think this was JA's vision of marriage too? Or is Charlotte simply what Jane Austen thinks she might have been like if she were a bit different? Which brings me to ask (though I'm sure we've covered this before) why is it in fact that Jane Austen never married? Was she disappointed in love? I see you've answered already. But do we know if she was ever in love with anyone?

27. "Do you often dance at St. James's?"

What is he referring to?



Volume 1, Chapter 7

28. What are "regimentals of an ensign"?




Volume 1, Chapter 8

29. "I think I have heard you say that their uncle is an attorney in Meryton."
"Yes; and they have another, who lives somewhere near Cheapside."
"That is capital," added her sister, and they both laughed heartily."


Why is this funny to them?

30. "Undoubtedly," replied Darcy, to whom this remark was chiefly addressed, "there is a meanness in all the arts which ladies sometimes condescend to employ for captivation. Whatever bears affinity to cunning is despicable."

I get the sense he is speaking about Miss Bingley and not Elizabeth here... correct?

Also as a factoid, the word 'cunning' only comes up once in the whole novel.

This is it for this round. Tomorrow another long day ahead. Must take Coco to the vet as he is behaving most strangely (I complained all about it on my own thread earlier), and then have an acupuncture appointment, so I may skip a day again.

69lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 10, 2014, 12:10 am

Chapter 5 (continued)

21. Languages variants that have since dropped out of usage were still being used at the time - in this case "ate" as the past tense of eat, instead of "eaten".

22. I don't think Mary would be caught dead reading anything as frivolous as a novel, even a didactic novel. More likely she has been studying some of the numerous conduct books that were popular at this time.

23. Him and Mrs Bennet, I would say.

Chapter 6

24. Well, I wouldn't assume that JA believed that just because Charlotte says it. Of Charlotte, it probably indicates that considers her own feelings well under her control and that she is unlikely to be led away by them or her behaviour dictated by them.

Mind you, that statement is made in the context of a society (as is suggested by the conversation following between Lizzie and Charlotte) in which girls had it drummed into them that they were never to feel a "preference" for a man until the man had indicated he felt one for them. To do so was forward and indelicate.

25. You shouldn't assume that all women wanted to marry. Many chose not to, and many did so very much against their will.

It is the situation of them both, if (as Lizzie says) "a rich husband, or any husband" is the point at issue. At this time Lizzie assumes that Charlotte feels more or less as she does on the subject of marriage; she will learn differently later on. To Lizzie marriage must be much more than just catching a man, any man. She therefore rejects Charlotte's suggestion of how to go about that "catching", though she doesn't believe that Charlotte is serious in what she says.

This exchange indicates that Lizzie believes a woman must really know and understand a man before she can contemplate marrying him, whereas Charlotte thinks a superficial acquaintance is enough.

26. No, again I would suggest that it is indicative of Charlotte's more practical, less idealistic ideas about marriage: if it's all pot-luck, what does it matter who you marry?

As for Austen, it is generally believed that there was a young man who died quite unexpectedly, although details are lacking. Her rejection of a "suitable establishment" later in life suggests that her ideas about marriage were much closer to Lizzie's than Charlotte's.

27. "St James's" is a reference to St James's Palace, one of the royal palaces, although no royals have lived there for centuries. Instead it is where the royals held official receptions and other formal functions including royal weddings and christenings. On certain days, including the monarch's birthdays, there were formal parties to which the aristocracy were summoned, and there would be dancing at these events.

So basically Sir William is asking Darcy if he rubs shoulders with royalty much. :)

Chapter 7

28. The dress uniform worn by a junior officer in a particular regiment of the army.

Chapter 8

29. Because what could be more humiliating and degrading than having relatives in trade? The ladies, using the term loosely, are determined to forget where their money came from. They are also trying to make Bingley ashamed of his preference for Jane, in the hopes that he will find a richer and more socially prominent wife. (We note that he doesn't much care what his sisters say, but he is affected by Darcy's opinion.)

30. Darcy recognises the intent behind both the sisters' sneers at Jane's relatives, and their criticism of Elizabeth. We imagine that Miss Bingley has been stalking him for quite some time.

***********************************

Not a problem, Ilana - whenever you can.

Again, if anyone else has comments or questions up to the end of Chapter 8, please go ahead.

70Nickelini
tammikuu 10, 2014, 1:28 am

I don't know about Darcy, because I dislike him quite strongly, but Colin Firth is another matter altogether and might make me learn to like the character in a manner I had never imagined I would before. I haven't seen that version of P&P yet, so will have to rent that one from the library too, along with the 1985 BBC version Liz is fond of which I already reserved yesterday.

I have watched the 1995 version on YouTube. Try: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLSPQEv2cwc

I got to know P&P through this version before any other, but I didn't know who he was the first time. I thought he was pretty awful. Now, ... not so awful.

71Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 10, 2014, 2:58 pm

Thanks for posting the movie site, OtherJoyce. That's still my favorite. Colin Firth (be still my heart), and whenever I'm reading about Liz I see Jennifer Ehle with the constant mischievious twinkle in her eye. Though, agreed, the movie makes Mr. Bennet seem like a loveable, reasonable, intelligent, likeable father instead of the irresponsible tormentor Austin wrote him to be.

72Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 10, 2014, 4:38 pm

73Nickelini
tammikuu 10, 2014, 7:05 pm

#72 - Oh, that's fun. My daughter brought me a "I love Darcy" bumper sticker and some Jane Austen tea from Bath last spring. And I've seen a lovely scarf with the text of P&P on it--don't know where to buy it though.

74Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 10, 2014, 9:38 pm

22. I think I didn't phrase my question very clearly. What I meant to ask was whether Jane Austen is poking fun at the older didactic novels by putting this edifying speech in Mary's mouth.

23. Point taken. The sad part is I'm so used to adults behaving like children that I hadn't even taken notice of Mrs Bennet's part in the argument.

24. Mind you, that statement is made in the context of a society (as is suggested by the conversation following between Lizzie and Charlotte) in which girls had it drummed into them that they were never to feel a "preference" for a man until the man had indicated he felt one for them. To do so was forward and indelicate.

How sad. But not entirely surprising.

25. You shouldn't assume that all women wanted to marry. Many chose not to, and many did so very much against their will.

You're right. That's exactly the assumption I was making because there seemed to be no other viable options for women, though I should really know better and DO know better. I think I lose my own compass when I'm in JA's world as it's still such unfamiliar territory to me.

27.So basically Sir William is asking Darcy if he rubs shoulders with royalty much.

Got it. Perfectly in character.

29. Because what could be more humiliating and degrading than having relatives in trade? The ladies, using the term loosely, are determined to forget where their money came from.

I'm sure it's something they've worked hard to forget.

75Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 10, 2014, 9:42 pm

>70 Nickelini: Thanks for the link Joyce. I watched the first five minutes to get a bit of a preview, but I was just at the library today and made a reservation for the DVD, so should get it within a week or two. Better image quality I'm sure. :-)

>72 Citizenjoyce: Fun! I was briefly tempted by the mug, till I remembered there's no more room for extra mugs in my cupboard.

>73 Nickelini: And I've seen a lovely scarf with the text of P&P on it--don't know where to buy it though.

Have you tried googling it?

I'm guessing it's this one: http://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/88642480/pride-and-prejudice-book-scarf

eta: I'm a big fan of Etsy. So many great unique finds there.

76lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 10, 2014, 9:58 pm

22. It's possible, since she certainly made fun of such novels in her juvenilia, and in Northanger Abbey.

24. The irony here is that Jane does exactly what she is "supposed to", as we gather from Charlotte's assertion that no-one who didn't know her well would be able to tell she had a preference for Bingley, and it backfires on her.

25. It's vital when reading these novels, even if they do ultimately head towards love-and-marriage-and-happy-ever-after, to pay close attention to the conflicting views and bad examples we meet along the way. Lizzie, for one thing, has her parents before her as a guidebook of what not to do.

Naturally there were a range of different views and feelings, just as there are now. Some women wanted desperately to marry and never did; some didn't want to but had no choice. And of course there were happy and successful marriages, too. But the lack of options and the sense of compulsion gives it all an uncomfortable edge, reading today.

77Smiler69
tammikuu 11, 2014, 8:28 pm

I'm back. Hardly didn't make it today, but it's true enough that reading Jane Austen when one is feeling unwell can be restorative, or at least a gentle diversion. I've read up to chapter 15 but don't really have that many questions. I'll get on that right away.

78lyzard
tammikuu 11, 2014, 8:36 pm

No questions - **gasp**!!

No worries, Ilana; post whatever you feel you need to - even if it's only your illustrations.

That goes for the rest of you, too!

79Smiler69
tammikuu 11, 2014, 9:02 pm

I said I didn't have that many questions. Not the same thing! ;-)

80Smiler69
tammikuu 11, 2014, 9:07 pm

Volume 1, Chapters 9 to 14

Volume 1, Chapter 9

31.
"Elizabeth passed the chief of the night in her sister's room, and in the morning had the pleasure of being able to send a tolerable answer to the inquiries which she very early received from Mr. Bingley by a housemaid, and some time afterwards from the two elegant ladies who waited on his sisters"

Who are these women?

32. "but as to not meeting with many people in this neighbourhood, I believe there are few neighbourhoods larger. I know we dine with four-and-twenty families."

Why does this seem funny to the Bingley women? That seems to me like a lot of acquaintances to have dinner with on a regular basis, but then I suppose the Bingley's dine with hundreds in London, is that it?

33. "She was very equal, therefore, to address Mr. Bingley on the subject of the ball"

I suppose it was unusual for one as young as Lydia to speak to a gentleman?

This brings me to another question: we criticize the Bennet's for doing a poor job of raising their girls, and I know this was true according to the standard of the times, but I'm sure there were just as many bad parents back then as there are now, and consequently plenty of children who weren't given proper guidelines, right? Was it so unusual for a novelist to dwell on this phenomenon?



Volume 1, Chapter 10

34.
What's this business about mending pens? What kinds of pens did they use then?

35. More a comment than a question, but certainly I welcome your point of view here. I found myself having the same reaction as I did the first time I read the novel in this section; both chapters 10 and 11 are set in the same room, which I'm sure is indicative of how people spent their time then, but the whole scene has such a claustrophobic feeling to it, with everyone observing someone else and conversations dwelling on people's faults and so on. What is the author establishing here exactly?

36. "She hardly knew how to suppose that she could be an object of admiration to so great a man"

This is meant to be sarcastic, right?



Volume 1, Chapter 11

37.
"as soon as Nicholls has made white soup enough, I shall send round my cards"

What is white soup and what does it have to do with balls and why does it need to be made so long in advance?

38. "Miss Eliza Bennet, let me persuade you to follow my example, and take a turn about the room. I assure you it is very refreshing after sitting so long in one attitude."

This part fills me with anxiety for some reason and makes me feel the claustrophobia acutely. Please tell me the room was a very large one. Was this a normal thing ladies did, walking about a room? Did everyone really have to spend all their free time stuck in one room together all the time?

39. "Mr. Darcy may hug himself."

What on earth does she mean?

40. "He began to feel the danger of paying Elizabeth too much attention."

I take it to indicate he is helplessly falling in love with her against his better judgment?



Volume 1, Chapter 13

41.
We've gone over this business of entail many times by now, but I still don't understand it. How was this procedure taken and by whom and why, and then was it really impossible to reverse it and is it something Mr Bennet could have changed?

42. "He seems to be a most conscientious and polite young man, upon my word, and I doubt not will prove a valuable acquaintance, especially if Lady Catherine should be so indulgent as to let him come to us again."

I know he's being sarcastic, but why the poke at Lady Catherine? (see next two questions/comments)

43. "Elizabeth was chiefly struck by his extraordinary deference for Lady Catherine, and his kind intention of christening, marrying, and burying his parishioners whenever it were required."

Same as above. I enjoy this whole section with Mr Collin very much because he really is a ridiculous man, but I don't see why his deference to Lady Catherine or his zeal about his religious work are funny.



Volume 1, Chapter 14

44.
"he had never in his life witnessed such behaviour in a person of rank—such affability and condescension, as he had himself experienced from Lady Catherine."

Is condescension supposed to be a likeable quality or one which is unusual coming from a person of rank?

So going back to my two previous comments about Lady Catherine, I think I've been stumped by something of this sort more than once; Jane Austen liked to introduce subjects by talking about them as if we were already familiar with their defects, and I'm not quite sure why she did this. I can see that on rereading her works we'd get the joke, but otherwise it's quite confusing.

81lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 11, 2014, 10:41 pm

>>#79

Ah!

Hmm, yes, I see what you mean... :)

>>#80 onwards...

Chapter 9

31. The sisters' personal maids. Austen is (rather sarcastically) making a couple of different points here. The "superior" personal maid was a status symbol at the time; quite a number of novels have scenes in which a lady's maid is mistaken for a houseguest, and so on. The Bingley sisters have bought into this so deeply that their maids can be described as the two elegant ladies who waited on {them}.

But the underlying point is that neither of the sisters has bothered to see for herself how Jane is doing, they've just sent their maids to ask. (Bingley sent the housemaid, but he's not allowed near Jane himself, so that's okay.)

32. Yes. Life for the upper classes (or those aspiring to them) meant keeping up an enormous acquaintance and a whirl of dances, parties, morning calls, leaving cards, and so on. It was a full-time occupation. The fact that the Bennets have a circle of only "four-and-twenty families" is indicative of both the paucity of life in the country and the low social standing of the Bennets.

33. A fifteen-year-old girl should not be "very equal" to initiating a conversation with a gentleman, to start making demands, and to keeping it up until she gets what she wants.

The question of bad parenting was one that impacted both sexes, of course, but it was particularly damaging to girls because of the marriage situation that we've already discussed. Men had enormous choice when it came to picking a wife, and it took only a minor infraction for a girl to get crossed off the list. Why have a girl with a smear of her character, or who got talked about, when you could have one who behaved perfectly?

This is Austen's point. The situation was grossly unfair, but this was the reality of the time: most girls had to get married if they could, and it didn't take much for a girl to be declared "unmarriageable". That being the case, parents had an absolute responsibility to raise their girls right and keep them from doing anything that could damage their chances. This is one of the places where the Bennets have failed as parents.

Chapter 10

34. Quills - bird feathers, which were sharpened to a point and could draw ink up their hollow interior. Their points became rough and scratchy quite easily and needed to be regularly smoothed with a small knife.

35. She's showing you how life actually was - and how hard it was to get away from other people and have some privacy. (This is a major theme of Sense And Sensibility, in particular.) Yes, that claustrophobic sense is intended and realistic. Everyone lived on everyone's else's radar, and you were usually being watched. You couldn't really just "slip away" if you wanted to, and certainly not if you were a young man and a young woman.

This is why dancing was important (for the conversation as well as the physical interaction), and why letter-writing was desperately important: it was often the only way to have a private conversation. (Though men and women were not supposed to correspond unless they were engaged.)

36. Yes and no. Yes, in that she hasn't much of an opinion of Darcy's (apparent) opinion of himself. No, in that in spite of herself, she is becoming painfully conscious of the social distance between the two of them.

Chapter 11

37. White soup was an elaborate concoction that was often served at dinner-parties and at supper at balls. There were different recipes, but the consensus seems to be it was a soup with a base of chicken or veal and vegetable stock which was made in lengthy, sequential steps; sometimes rice was added. Butter, herbs, ground almonds, cream and egg yolk were added just before serving.

I think Bingley is being funny when he says he won't send his cards out until he's sure that there's enough white soup to go around - suggesting that the success or failure of his party will depend upon everyone getting white soup. It must have been "the" fashionable dish at the time.

38. Yes, the room would have been large enough for doing laps to be reasonable exercise. Not the kind of exercise that a real country-girl would have been used to (or would find adequate), but suitable for London ladies not used to braving the big outdoors. (Remember the sisters' reaction to Lizzie walking over and getting her petticoats dirty.)

Though of course, it isn't exercise that Miss Bingley has in mind when she invites Lizzie to walk with her: Miss Bingley succeeded no less in the real object of her civility; Mr. Darcy looked up.

:D

It was the custom that if there were guests, everyone spent the evening together.

39. That Mr Darcy may consider himself safe from attack.

40. Indicating that such a thing might just be possible, except---

He really believed, that were it not for the inferiority of her connections, he should be in some danger.

Nice.

He's beginning to worry that the inferiority of her connections aren't the natural protection he assumed them to be... :)

Chapter 13

41. And it's very important that we do understand how an entail works. Briefly, it was a legal arrangement by which a man held a property "in trust", and did not have the right to dispose of any part of it. It also dictated the inheritance of the property, usually in a direct line through the male generations. An entail could only be broken or set aside with the cooperation of the next heir, and this was not often done.

In this case, the entail on Longbourn means that when Mr Bennet dies the entire property will - and must - pass to Mr Collins, his closest male relative. The necessity of passing on the property intact means that Mr Bennet cannot raise money by, for example, selling off some of the land, or any of the furniture or jewellery that has been named in the entail.

The implication is that if the Bennets had had a son, there would have been a bit more flexibility, "all in the family", and that the girls would have been looked after by their brother if their father died, and could have gone on living in the house. As it stands, on Mr Bennet's death the property passes immediately to Mr Collins, and Mrs Bennet and the girls will have to get out. This dire possibility is further exacerbated by the fact that Mr Bennet has not succeeded in making financial provision that will support his family after his death, or decent dowries for the girls.

42. & 43. A clergyman, of all men, was supposed to be independent, and uninfluenced by the social position of his parishioners. Mr Collins, however, appears to have his entire life controlled by Lady Catherine (even when and if he visits his relatives), and far from minding that he can't call his soul his own, he thinks it's a great honour. It's his pompous language and the fact that he seems to intend "christening, marrying, and burying" people because he owes it to Lady Catherine, rather than because it's his job, that they're amused by.

Chapter 14

44. Condescension was a bit of a double-edged sword. There was "proper" condescension, which was behaving in an appropriate manner to your social inferiors and fulfilling your duties towards them, and "improper" condescension, which was thinking that because they were your inferiors, you had the right to butt into their lives and tell them what to do. Mr Collins clearly views Lady Catherine's condescension as proper, whereas we get the increasing sense that it is very improper.

For people of Austen's time, who lived in a very verbally orientated world, how people spoke and used language was vitally important. It was one of the main ways in which information about an individual could be gathered and assessed (and why individuals who are not "straightforward" in their speech, or who say one thing and do another, are often regarded with suspicion in novels of this time.) This is also why letters are so important in novels: they are used to convey character, by allowing the reader to interpret the use of language. For instance here, Mr Bennet and Lizzie read Mr Collins' letter, and conclude that he is not a sensible man. Likewise, the way Mr Collins talks about Lady Catherine tends to confirm that initial impression of him, while also giving us an impression of her that is quite the opposite of what he intends.

However---there was also a certain danger, not in making these judgements, but in not leaving room for your opinion to be adjusted. Lizzie tends to be guilty of this, probably because she's usually right, and so it's easy to assume she always is.

So the thing to do with these introductions of Austen's is to make your own judgements upon them at the time, and then test those judgements later on in view of further information. This is what Lizzie ought to be doing. But... :)

82kiwiflowa
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 11, 2014, 11:12 pm

A question about entails - because it's in this story and also a bit part of Downton Abbey I admit.

How do they come into being? I mean who decides there should be an entail and why? I can't understand why it's a good idea if the person who owns the property voluntarily decides to do it and take away the independence of their heirs to decide to do with their property, who should inherit (i.e. women) for generations down the line. So are they compelled to do it in some way?

83lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 11, 2014, 11:21 pm

It was a long-standing English practice for keeping estates intact, and to prevent heirs who weren't up to the job (or only interested in the money) from dismantling what might have taken centuries to build up. I believe the practice began in feudal times, when the "liege lords" had serious responsibilities towards their peasants and needed the wherewithal to do the job properly. Later it became a way of maintaining the power of the aristocracy and landed gentry, because it made it impossible for associated responsibilities and privileges to be given up by individuals. Once an entail was in place it was extremely hard to break, because inheriting robbed the inheritor of legal power to do it.

Who actually inherited depended upon the wording of the original entail; sometimes it had to be a direct descendent (a son, or a son's son), sometimes it had to go to a descendent of the same name (even if it was a woman; usually her husband would have to change his), and sometimes, as in the case of Mr Bennet, it could just go to the nearest male relative.

84Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 12, 2014, 1:46 am

I was wondering if the furniture were part of the entail. It hadn't even occurred to me that it could include jewelry too. Perhaps it was for the good of the estate (though not of the Bennets) that there was an entail since Mr. Bennet seemed financially irresponsible. When Mr. Collins inherits does the entail continue meaning he can pass it only to a male heir also?

85lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:14 am

An entail *can* include anything, although the only constants are the land and buildings; specific items of historical significance and/or great value were often specified. The person in possession could add to the property, and have those additions included in the entail (or not), but he could not dispose of anything that had been designated as part of it.

Where the furniture came into the house with the wife upon her marriage, as often happened, it would usually remain her property by will after her husband's death, even if the house was entailed.

Yes, the estate will presumably pass in due course to Mr Collins' son; or failing a son, his nearest male relative. With some entails, the failure to produce a male heir could break the arrangement, but that obviously isn't the case with Longbourn.

86Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 12, 2014, 2:53 pm

So if there are no male heirs it's automatically broken and goes to the eldest daughter or the wife or what?

87lyzard
tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:04 pm

If there was no male heir, the property would be divided equally amongst any daughters - which would defeat the purpose of the entail by breaking up what had been held together to that point. Then under the laws of the time, each piece of property would pass to the husband of any daughter that married. In order to accomplish this the property would presumably be sold and the money divided, and that would be that.

88SandDune
tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:08 pm

Delurking to say that this is a very interesting thread. Pride and Prejudice is one of my favourite books which I have read more times than I can remember. Obviously, it's really difficult because of how the prices have changed but I get the impression that Mr Darcy's income of £10,000 provided him with a much more rarified lifestyle than the £500,000 would do today. I suppose if you take a minimum middle-class income in the UK as £20,000 (arbitrary I know) then £500,000 is 25 times that, whereas in the nineteenth century a minimum middle-class income would have been around £150 with Darcy's £10,000 being around 68 times more. And when you look at the lower incomes the difference is even more: minimum wage today equates to around £12-13,000 for a full time job whereas a farm labourer in the nineteenth century would earn less than £50.

And the difference in where you would live housing wise is very different as well. I live near the town in Hertfordshire that's been mooted as a model for Meryton in Pride and Prejudice (Ware) and your city trader on £500,000 a year couldn't afford anything like the sort of country pile than Darcy has. Probably something much more like the Bennett's house. Incidentally, when I was checking that I noticed a quote that in 1808 the largest estate in Hertfordshire, which would have been a prosperous county having quite good agricultural land, had an annual value of £7,000. So on this basis Darcy's income would have been huge.

89lyzard
tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:18 pm

But we need to remember that Darcy neither earns his income as such, nor purchased his estate; it's all by inheritance. Later we learn he is a conscientious landlord so there would be good wages paid and expenditure to keep everything in good condition, but the income he derives is the consequence of generations before him.

We hear that Longbourn is worth about two thousand pounds a year.

And yes, all of this needs to be put into the context of labourers and servants earning only a few pounds a year.

90cbl_tn
tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:27 pm

Delurking momentarily to mention something that just struck me. Like Ilana, I'm participating in the group read of Bleak House this month. Bleak House described as being near St. Albans, so I assume that means the house is also in Hertfordshire. I thought that was an interesting connection between the two books.

91lyzard
tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:33 pm

Hertfordshire was a popular setting for 19th century novels because it was fairly close to London and allowed easy switching from city to country. (It was "further away" in Austen's pre-railway days, of course.)

92lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 12, 2014, 3:56 pm

Since we were discussing earlier the fact that Mrs Bennet tends to get dismissed as wrong because she is annoying, she is not exaggerating much when she claims that the entail could leave the girls (and herself) destitute. Much later in the book we learn that, Five thousand pounds was settled by marriage articles on Mrs Bennet and the children.

If Mr Bennet dies, that's the sum that will have to support all of them forever - or be divided up somehow if any of the girls marry. Money like this was usually invested at about 3%, so realistically it provides an income of about one hundred and fifty pounds a year, for six people.

In contrast, Bingley has an annual income of "four or five thousand a year", and Darcy as we know ten thousand a year.

93Smiler69
tammikuu 12, 2014, 11:01 pm

Read up to chapter 22 today and was reminded of how wonderful that whole marriage proposal scene is. Probably making chapter 19 one of my favourite chapters in the book. I'll be quoting a couple of extracts lower down.

I was slow to enter take part in the discussion about Mr and Mrs Bennet, and who of the two is more at fault. I must say though that as I reread the novel, I can't help but find Mr Bennet truly delightful and it seems quite clear that superficially at least, he is the likeable one of the two. Of course I do recognize his responsibility in neglecting to insure the future of his daughters, but somehow the whole discussion reminds me of the kind of arguments a child of divorce (such as I) keeps hearing about how irresponsible the father is all the time ('but he's so much fun!' the child wants to say) and how many responsibilities the mother has to take on, whether she likes it or not. I think I will persist in taking a stance as a reader and watcher on the sidelines who just wants to be entertained and continue admiring Mr Bennet for his wonderful wit.

Questions and comments coming up in a more structured manner next.

94Smiler69
tammikuu 12, 2014, 11:44 pm

Volume 1, Chapters 15 to 21

Volume 1, Chapter 15

45.
"and though he belonged to one of the universities, he had merely kept the necessary terms, without forming at it any useful acquaintance."

What is meant by this?

46. Truly, I'm so very glad for the presence of poor ridiculous Mr Collins in this novel. I'd forgotten how much good fun is had at his expense, and do recall now that on first reading I was also very taken by... if not him exactly, then by how much he adds to the whole, like a court jester I suppose:

"This was his plan of amends—of atonement—for inheriting their father's estate; and he thought it an excellent one, full of eligibility and suitableness, and excessively generous and disinterested on his own part."

"Mr. Collins had only to change from Jane to Elizabeth—and it was soon done—done while Mrs. Bennet was stirring the fire."

47. Why does he choose one of the largest folios to pretend to read from in Mr Bennet's library? Does he foolishly think this makes him look more learned?

48. "She received him with her very best politeness, which he returned with as much more, apologising for his intrusion, without any previous acquaintance with her, which he could not help flattering himself, however, might be justified by his relationship to the young ladies who introduced him to her notice."

I'm missing the point here.



Volume 1, Chapter 16

49.
"To the girls, who could not listen to their cousin, and who had nothing to do but to wish for an instrument, and examine their own indifferent imitations of china on the mantelpiece, the interval of waiting appeared very long. "

By 'wish for an instrument', I'm assuming they wished there was a musical instrument. But I'm completely stumped by the second part.

50. What is this game of lottery tickets and what is meant by this story of a fish lost and won?



Volume 1, Chapter 17

51.
Were the clergy not allowed to attend balls and to dance and sing?

52. "I take this opportunity of soliciting yours, Miss Elizabeth, for the two first dances especially, a preference which I trust my cousin Jane will attribute to the right cause, and not to any disrespect for her."

What does he mean by 'the right cause'?

53. "No aunt, no officers, no news could be sought after—the very shoe-roses for Netherfield were got by proxy."

What are shoe-roses and what is meant by this?



Volume 1, Chapter 19 (one of my favourite chapters so far)

54.
I can tell JA had a blast writing about Mr Collins. So many great gems here:

"And now nothing remains for me but to assure you in the most animated language of the violence of my affection."
Ouch!

55. What does "one thousand pounds in the four per cents" mean? Is this referring to the interest generated by placing that money?

56. Among my favourite quotes in the whole book:

""I am not now to learn," replied Mr. Collins, with a formal wave of the hand, "that it is usual with young ladies to reject the addresses of the man whom they secretly mean to accept, when he first applies for their favour; and that sometimes the refusal is repeated a second, or even a third time. I am therefore by no means discouraged by what you have just said, and shall hope to lead you to the altar ere long." "

Interestingly enough though, that's just what Darcy ends up having to do, isn't it?



Volume 1, Chapter 20 (another one of my favourite chapters so far)

57.
"If therefore she actually persists in rejecting my suit, perhaps it were better not to force her into accepting me, because if liable to such defects of temper, she could not contribute much to my felicity."

No indeed!

57. Who can not love Mr Bennet (other than his long-suffering wife) for saying things like this:

""An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth. From this day you must be a stranger to one of your parents. Your mother will never see you again if you do not marry Mr. Collins, and I will never see you again if you do."

Incidentally, the word 'unhappy' appears 13 times in the novel. The word happy: 70 times.

58. "looking as unconcerned as may be, and caring no more for us than if we were at York"

What is meant by this?



And that's it for this round!

95ronincats
tammikuu 12, 2014, 11:56 pm

I've caught up on this thread, finally, and am enjoying it muchly. I hope Liz comes along quickly, Ilana, as I am itching to address a couple of your points. I will limit myself to the first, however, since I simply can't resist. It means he had attended the classes for the semesters, or terms, required, but had not made any useful connections or done any networking while there.

96Nickelini
tammikuu 13, 2014, 12:07 am

Incidentally, the word 'unhappy' appears 13 times in the novel. The word happy: 70 times.

But how many times does Lydia say "fun"? ;-)

97lyzard
tammikuu 13, 2014, 12:40 am

Chapter 15

45. Going to university at the time was as much about making social connections as getting an education or training for a career. Mr Collins has failed to make friends with anyone "useful" (who might help him secure a living, for example).

47. Mr. Collins, being in fact much better fitted for a walker than a reader... Yes, I think it's likely he thinks the bigger the book, the better to impress Mr Bennet.

48. Mr Collins has come into Mrs Phillips' house without a formal introduction, and without being previously introduced to her. Mr Collins as we have seen is very fixated upon going through the rituals of social interaction and so he apologises profusely for not following the rules. Mrs Phillips was quite awed by such an excess of good breeding, and probably didn't realise there was anything for Mr Collins to apologise for, since he came with her nieces.

Chapter 16

49. Presumably the Bennets keep bits of pottery or glaze-work made by the girls in their younger years on the mantelpiece. From "indifferent" we gather they weren't very good at this particular "accomplishment".

If there was a musical instrument in the room they would have something to do besides listen to Mr Collins, but as it is they can only pass the time by staring at the knick-knacks.

50. They are playing a simple card game called "lottery", in which players bet unseen on the value of their cards. The bets are made with the "fish", also called the "tickets", which are like poker chips, having different values ("fish" was a corruption of the French "fiche", counter). Then a winning card was turned up from a second deck and if anyone held that card, they won the fish. It is a measure of Lydia's mental powers that she finds the game so fascinating and can talk about it for hours.

Chapter 17

51. They were allowed to (Henry Tilney in Northanger Abbey is an enthusiastic dancer), but there was some debate over how "proper" it was, and this increased over the 19th century, particularly with the emergence of more evangelical factions. In Austen's time it was quite all right for clergymen to attend social functions and dance, however.

52. That Jane is off-limits because of her almost-engagement. Otherwise social convention would dictate that he dance with her first, as the eldest daughter, and not to do so might be considered "disrespectful". Also by this time he probably imagines that everyone knows that he is pursuing Elizabeth (including Elizabeth).

53. The weather is so terrible that they can't get out of the house. They can't go into town to see the officers or hear the gossip. They even have to send away for their "shoe-roses" - decorations stitched onto dancing shoes for balls - instead of going into town to buy them.

Chapter 19

55. Yes; the safest investment was a kind of government issued bond, which paid between 3-4% (I guessed three up above when I was working out Mrs Bennet's future income). One thousand pounds in the four percents is a poor dowry.

56. Yes, but not because she's being fashionably flirtatious, as Mr Collins suggests.

Chapter 20

58. Merely an expression to indicate how Mrs Bennet views Elizabeth's refusal to do as she's told: she behaves as if there were no-one there to tell her what to do at all, as if her parents (or at least her mother) were as far away as York.

98lyzard
tammikuu 13, 2014, 12:41 am

Have at it, the rest of you! :)

99kiwiflowa
tammikuu 13, 2014, 1:53 am

I read the book Longbourn last month, I really enjoyed it, and the small things like "shoe roses got by proxy" were used by the author of Longbourn to re-write P&P from the view of the downstairs servants. Previously I admit I never really wondered what they were.

100lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 13, 2014, 2:13 am

Shoe roses were usually made out of ribbon and lace with some wire to shape and stiffen them. They could be made by hand, but in this case it sounds as if the girls had them made up by a milliner. (Perhaps they would have bought the materials and made their own if the weather had cooperated, but with time running short they had to buy them ready-made.)

101wandering_star
tammikuu 13, 2014, 8:18 am

I've just caught up with this thread and it's so interesting. Thanks Smiler for coming up with the questions, Lyzard for the fascinating answers and everyone else for the discussion. I haven't started my re-read of P&P yet but this will definitely enhance my appreciation of it - for example, I'd never thought about the negative aspects of Mr Bennet's hands-off-ness.

102lyzard
tammikuu 13, 2014, 3:48 pm

Me Bennet's behaviour is a very important aspect of the novel. It's also a good illustration of the fact that we let people we like get away with a bit too much. :)

This whole sequence is example of the slanted response, I think. Austen writes Mr Collins so cleverly that our first reaction to the thought of Elizabeth marrying him is, "Oh, my God, no!", and we certainly side with Mr Bennet in his "one parent must be a stranger" speech. BUT---Mrs Bennet still has a very legitimate point. If Mr Collins were to marry one of the daughters of the house, he would have a moral obligation to provide for the others, should it come to that. It's not just Elizabeth marrying per se that's at stake here.

103Smiler69
tammikuu 13, 2014, 6:08 pm

>95 ronincats: Aha, thanks Roni. I guess things haven't changed much. I missed out on university and chances to network that way, but I guess just attending isn't a guarantee of success on that score.

>96 Nickelini: But how many times does Lydia say "fun"? ;-)

Joyce, that would be 8 times. :-)

>97 lyzard: Liz, I just had a friend over for tea today who is equally passionate about books, and our conversation led to P&P. She is somewhat older than me, late 50s and admitted she hasn't yet read any work by Jane Austen, much for the same reasons I had avoided her till my 40s, thinking her too precious and prissy and prettily romantic. So I took out my beautiful copy and started reading to her bits from chapters 19 and 20 about Mr Collins and his ridiculous marriage proposal and so on, and she seemed very amused. I think we may eventually have another convert. :-)

56. No no, I was not at all suggesting that, only the fact that he did in fact propose more than once, and she was in fact "so daring as to risk (her) happiness on the chance of being asked a second time."

58. I just thought there might be some special significance to York specifically, but I guess not?

>99 kiwiflowa: Yes yes yes, I will definitely read Longbourn the second after I've finished with P&P!

>101 wandering_star: My pleasure. I've followed several of Liz's tutorials and whether one is a tutee or simply a follower/lurker, there is much to be gained by them in augmenting the appreciation of the featured novels.

>102 lyzard: It's not just Elizabeth marrying per se that's at stake here.

No, of course not, but at the same time, if she did marry him and ensure that her sisters and mother are provided for, she would have to endure Mr Collins for the rest of his life which would in effect assure her of near-eternal misery and of course this isn't in Elizabeth's character.




I may or may not have time to read a few more chapter today, though I will try to at least finish Volume 1. You will hear from me soon at any event.

104Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 13, 2014, 6:17 pm

Funny, Lisa, I thought exactly the same thing. In Longbourn Jo Baker takes this little remark about shoe roses and makes some telling scenes out of it. The more I read P&P, the more I'm impressed by Longbourn, and incidentally the more I like P&P. It's so much better the second time around, especially with the help of Liz and Ilana. Also, the edition I'm reading on Nook has lots of information in the footnotes.

105lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 13, 2014, 7:15 pm

>>#103

I think we may eventually have another convert. :-)

Excellent!

56. But then, at the time she didn't think she was! :)

58. No, I don't think so. Only that York is in the north of the country and a long way away.

106Smiler69
tammikuu 13, 2014, 7:21 pm

This thread needs a bit more colour, so here is another illustration by the Balbusso Twins depicting Elizabeth very reluctantly dancing with Darcy at Bingley's ball. (Chapter Eighteen)

107ronincats
tammikuu 13, 2014, 7:22 pm

Oh, wow, look at all those regimentals in the background!

108Nickelini
tammikuu 14, 2014, 1:16 am

I know I've already said my piece about how I was surprised how much I disliked Mr Bennet when I read the book (after finding him amusing in the various films). Literary critic John Sutherland and Austen scholar Deirdre Le Faye have some interesting things to say about this in So You Think You Know Jane Austen?.

This rather light book is set up as a sort of trivia game. Occasionally there are some wonderful little bits. Pertaining to Mr Bennet, I quote:

Q: What is Mrs Bennet's characteristic indisposition,and what do we deduce from it?
A: 'Nerves." Neurosis would be the modern equivalent. She uses her nervousness as a means of tyrannizing over her family. One must also wonder how much Mr Bennet's sub-acid scorn has driven her neurotic. Is she a (verbally) battered wife?

and

"Although scholarly, Mr Bennet does not seem to be a university man. He is also notably solitary, verging on misanthropic."

and

Q Why does Mr Bennet tease and tantalize his wife so?
A Because, in his way, he is a domestic tyrant. Teasing also seems the means by which he controls his irritation at her stupidity (and his own stupidity for having married her).

I've read both the collaborators of this book elsewhere, and these comments really have the mark of John Sutherland to me. I've enjoyed many hours reading his commentary on 19th century literature. He really knows his stuff, and he pulls no punches when he doesn't like someone. Luckily for me, we usually dislike the same characters.

Anyway, what do you think? Is Mrs Bennet abused on some level? Is Sutherland overstating the case? Personally, as much as I want to shake Mr Bennet, I don't know that I can fully agree with these comments.

109Nickelini
tammikuu 14, 2014, 1:16 am

Just love the picture, BTW. I copied it to pinterest.

110Nickelini
tammikuu 14, 2014, 1:18 am

But how many times does Lydia say "fun"? ;-)

Joyce, that would be 8 times. :-)


Keep counting! There's a section later on where she probably says it 8 times on one page.

111lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 14, 2014, 1:38 am

I think the thing to keep in mind in the context of Jane Austen and her times is that with all the choice in the world, Mr Bennet chose to marry a stupid woman because she had a pretty face. These were the sorts of marriages that Austen had the most scorn for - much more so than mercenary marriages, which were often a necessity and not a choice - and they recur throughout her work.

From various things that Mrs Bennet says, it's not hard to imagine her being rather like Lydia - and probably not much older than Lydia, either. And yes, no doubt Mr Bennet quickly became disillusioned - but it was his own doing - and it isn't right that effectively he has been taking it out on his wife ever since. (If he's been hearing about her nerves for twenty years, I think we can safely assume he's also been teasing her for twenty years.) We don't think for a moment that he would hit Mrs Bennet or even raise his voice to her, but I would contend that the constant teasing *is* a form of abuse, and that at least part of Mrs Bennet's nerves can be traced to never feeling quite comfortable.

Of course it's also true that a lot of woman at this time developed "nerves" for want of anything more constructive to do with their time.

(I've always thought the Palmers in Sense And Sensibility were like "Mr and Mrs Bennet, The Early Years" - except that they have money, so they don't have the same financial stress.)

112Nickelini
tammikuu 14, 2014, 2:08 am

1. I wish my book contained a map of England and the various houses and spots in the story. Can you tell me where in England the Bennet family and Netherfield are?

All the way back to Q 1 -- I realize I have a map for you on one of my Pinterest boards. Here it is:


not sure how stable this image is, so speak up if it stops loading and I'll hunt down a different copy.

113Deern
tammikuu 14, 2014, 6:43 am

On my (slow) office computer it loaded just fine. That's a great map!
I am a bit surprised about the distance between Rosings and Pemberley which brings me to a "What if..." question I'd like to ask once we have reached those chapters.

#111: That's a great idea with the Palmers, I think you're right. That's probably how we should imagine the Bennets early in their marriage with just 1-2 kids around.

114Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 14, 2014, 9:34 am

I love the map, thanks.

115Smiler69
tammikuu 14, 2014, 12:52 pm

Oooh! I love the map too. I posted it onto my much underused Pinterest account. A few appointments today to go off to soon, but I'll be back later this evening having read at least the final two chapters of Volume 1.

116kiwiflowa
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 14, 2014, 5:50 pm

Yesterday I watched Supersizers Go: Regency on YouTube. Each one hour episode goes back to a particular time and for one week experience the era. Mostly to do with what they ate back then but it also has some of the social customs, history etc too. I think it's quite old so you guys may have already seen it. If not the whole series is interesting to watch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go0k0Q4l8H0

117Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 15, 2014, 4:15 am

I was a little late getting to the new season of Downtown Abbey, but speaking of a property's being entailed Mathew's will left his property, which had been entailed to him, to his wife, not to his son. Was that an in accuracy in the series?

118lyzard
tammikuu 15, 2014, 4:43 am

English entail laws were abolished in the mid-1920s, so perhaps it's about when those scenes are set?

119Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 15, 2014, 3:19 pm

I'm so sorry I didn't do my homework or give further news yesterday. It was a very big day with several important appointments and errands (for those in the know, seeing my neurologist for my biannual appointment; specifically about my now 10-week migraine and hopefully getting a course of treatment which might give me relief). Anyway, reading some chapters now and will come back later with questions/comments.

>116 kiwiflowa: Lisa, I vaguely remember seeing this show mentioned somewhere. I watched the introduction yesterday and it looks like great fun, and this episode seems especially promising and very à propos! Thanks for sharing the link.

>117 Citizenjoyce: Joyce, I'm really tempted to see what you've written up there but must hold off since I haven't watched the second episode of DA yet, but thinking now I should probably do so no later than today.

120Smiler69
tammikuu 15, 2014, 4:48 pm

Update: just finished Volume 1. Have mostly comments to make for the last two chapters, which I will post a little bit later today. Off to the library with Coco now to pick up, among other things, the BBC version of P&P recommended by Liz.

121Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 15, 2014, 5:24 pm

>118 lyzard: right you are, the great and powerful lyzard, this season is set after WWI, a while after the great flu epidemic, so I'm thinking early 1920's. Do you know everything?

122lyzard
tammikuu 15, 2014, 5:28 pm

Everything to do with obscure details in 19th century English novels, yes. Just don't ask me about anything practical or useful! :D

123Smiler69
tammikuu 15, 2014, 8:25 pm

Volume 1, Chapters 22 and 23

Volume 1, Chapter 22

59.
"But here she did injustice to the fire and independence of his character, for it led him to escape out of Longbourn House the next morning with admirable slyness, and hasten to Lucas Lodge to throw himself at her feet."

I'm guessing this is meant to be an ironic comment?

60. I added the following to the TIOLI thread a bit earlier. Now officially one of my favourite quotes from the book!
"The stupidity with which he was favoured by nature must guard his courtship from any charm that could make a woman wish for its continuance; and Miss Lucas, who accepted him solely from the pure and disinterested desire of an establishment, cared not how soon that establishment were gained."

Just one question Liz, do I take the last part to connote that Charlotte is in no great hurry to slip into the marriage bed with him?

61. "and Sir William gave it as his decided opinion, that whenever Mr. Collins should be in possession of the Longbourn estate, it would be highly expedient that both he and his wife should make their appearance at St. James's. "

Why is this an occasion to appear at court?

62. "The younger girls formed hopes of coming out a year or two sooner than they might otherwise have done; and the boys were relieved from their apprehension of Charlotte's dying an old maid. "

Why would it be acceptable for the girls to come out sooner, or is it just a question of money? And why would the boys care if she died an old maid or not? Would this somehow be a stain on their honour?

63. "Charlotte herself was tolerably composed. She had gained her point, and had time to consider of it. Her reflections were in general satisfactory. Mr. Collins, to be sure, was neither sensible nor agreeable; his society was irksome, and his attachment to her must be imaginary. But still he would be her husband.Without thinking highly either of men or matrimony, marriage had always been her object; it was the only provision for well-educated young women of small fortune, and however uncertain of giving happiness, must be their pleasantest preservative from want. This preservative she had now obtained; and at the age of twenty-seven, without having ever been handsome, she felt all the good luck of it. "

On the one hand I feel sorry for her that she truly thinks this is the best option for her, but at the same time, she's entering into this arrangement with eyes wide open.

Word stats: the word 'marriage' appears 66 times in the novel. The word 'matrimony': 6 times.

63. "and her astonishment was consequently so great as to overcome at first the bounds of decorum "

Must decorum really be maintained ever between two good friends, or is it rather the 'happy' occasion which would call for decorum?

64. "I am not romantic, you know; I never was. I ask only a comfortable home; and considering Mr. Collins's character, connection, and situation in life, I am convinced that my chance of happiness with him is as fair as most people can boast on entering the marriage state."

This is probably all too true, and if anything, since her expectations and needs are so basic and realistic, she probably has better chances of being happy with her marriage than most, even by today's standards.

Word stats: the word 'romantic' appears only once in the novel. The word 'romance': not at all.




Volume 1, Chapter 23

65.
"Two inferences, however, were plainly deduced from the whole: one, that Elizabeth was the real cause of the mischief; and the other that she herself had been barbarously misused by them all; and on these two points she principally dwelt during the rest of the day. "

Moments like these make it nearly impossible to have much sympathy for Mrs Bennet, and here one really can hardly blame Mr Bennet for her reaction. The more I progress with this reread, the more I take his side as someone I'd like to know, though always with the caveat that I wouldn't want to be his daughter.

66. "and written with all the solemnity of gratitude which a twelvemonth's abode in the family might have prompted."

Mr Collins really is insufferable, and yet so delightful too! But why would he stay at Longbourn and not Lucas Lodge given the circumstances?

67. "As for Jane, her anxiety under this suspense was, of course, more painful than Elizabeth's, but whatever she felt she was desirous of concealing, and between herself and Elizabeth, therefore, the subject was never alluded to. But as no such delicacy restrained her mother, an hour seldom passed in which she did not talk of Bingley, express her impatience for his arrival, or even require Jane to confess that if he did not come back she would think herself very ill used. It needed all Jane's steady mildness to bear these attacks with tolerable tranquillity.

Mrs Bingley is impossible. Utterly unlikeable. And again, Mr Bingley is hardly to blame for her insensitive behaviour.

124Smiler69
tammikuu 15, 2014, 8:28 pm

>110 Nickelini: Keep counting! There's a section later on where she probably says it 8 times on one page.

Joyce, when I counted the first time, the word "fun" appeared 7 times on one page, plus another time elsewhere.

>117 Citizenjoyce:, 118, 121 Yes, the beginning of this season of DA is set some time after WWI, somewhere from beginning to mid-20s.

125lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 16, 2014, 3:51 pm

Chapter 22

59. Yes, and in more ways than one. Apart from the mere idea of the expression "the fire and independence of his character" being applied to Mr Collins, its also meant to underscore that he's about to make his second proposal of marriage in three days.

While dissecting Charlotte's rather cold-blooded acquisition of "an establishment", we shouldn't overlook Mr Collins' own display of thick-skinned insensitivity.

60. No, rather the opposite. Not that she wants to, of course, but if having sex with Mr Collins is the price she has to pay for a roof over her head, then why not get it over with as soon as possible?

61. It was customary for newly married couples of the upper classes to be presented at court. In this case Sir William recognises that Charlotte and Mr Collins will have to wait until Mr Bennet dies and he inherits Longbourn and so becomes one of "the landed gentry", instead of just a clergyman.

Being presented increased your social prominence (and that of your connections, hence Sir William's anxiety on the subject).

62. Generally the younger girls in a family weren't brought out until their older sisters married (or gave up trying to catch a husband). Partly this was about expense, and partly an effort not to look desperate by flooding the market with marriageable girls.

Usually girls came out at seventeen or eighteen. Lydia being out at fifteen is, as we've said, indicative of a lack of proper care and guidance.

As for the boys, if Charlotte never marries, when their father dies they will "inherit" the expense of keeping her. (This was a serious thing: many young men couldn't ever afford to marry because of the cost of supporting their mother and sisters.)

63. Yes, but it's as if not she has a lot of choice. She can live on her brothers for all of her life, or she can marry a man for whom she cares nothing, and who cares nothing for her.

While it's easier to sympathise with Elizabeth's rejection of this sort of marriage, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that during the 19th century a lot of women of the middle and upper classes died of what we might call "genteel poverty". They didn't literally starve, but with tiny incomes and no way of earning more money, they never had quite enough to eat, and were ever quite warm enough. Their health broke down, they became vulnerable to illness, and often died young.

It was on this basis that the push for women generally to be better educated and given the chance to support themselves by working began, though it was the end of the century before significant headway was made.

Edit: 63b. Once someone was engaged to married, anything approaching criticism of the person they were engaged to was strictly off-limits. This was also the case of course with married couples; except in extreme circumstances you did not criticise a wife to a husband or vice versa (spouses weren't supposed to criticise their partners to outsiders, either). In this case Elizabeth showing that she is shocked and dismayed by Charlotte's choice crosses that boundary.

64. It depends on your definition of happy, I suppose.

(This is usually the point in English class where we get an argument about the difference between mercenary marriage and prostitution!)

"Romance" had different connotations at the time, and the word wasn't generally used to describe relationships. (Or not acceptable relationships.)

Chapter 23

65. Granted, she's infuriating; but---he married her. :)

Pay close attention to what Austen is doing here. She juxtaposes Charlotte's completely cold-blooded acceptance of Mr Collins with the Bennet marriage which was, it is implied, built upon sexual attraction and nothing more. Both of these are equally wrong. Elizabeth has two very different examples of what not to do before her.

66. Partly because he had already arranged to do so, partly because he's probably getting a kick out of reminding the Bennets what they let get away.

67. Bennet? :)

And I can only refer you to my comments in 65. above.

126Smiler69
tammikuu 15, 2014, 9:14 pm

Oops, Bennet, of course yes. Not sure why Bingley slipped in there. Maybe I miss him? Or maybe Mrs Bennet made me type Bingley? That's probably it! :-)

127lyzard
tammikuu 15, 2014, 10:14 pm

Oh, sure, blame it on Mrs Bennet!! :D

It seems strange to us at this distance but not many people wrote this way about marriage before Austen; probably only Fanny Burney and Maria Edgeworth, to an extent - and Samuel Richardson, if you want to stretch a point. And because her books were humorous, and full of clever characters, and had happy endings, she got away with making some pretty stringent criticisms of her society, which was something female writers weren't supposed to be doing. She also, obviously, valued women and showed she understood the limitations of their lives and the choices they were forced to make - and she took those things seriously. She must have been quite a revelation to novel-readers in her day.

128Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 16, 2014, 12:33 am

Watching the movie I was as surprised as Elizabeth at the Charlotte-Collins engagement, but reading the book makes it very understandable from both sides. I wonder if Charlotte had refused him he would have at last turned to poor Mary. Their temperaments are so similar it would have made for a much less tolerable relationship, I think.

129Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 16, 2014, 12:57 am

As a contrast to the 18th century, I'm also reading Life Class by PatBarker set during WWI. Eleanor is a young woman going to art school: No man was ever going ro entice her into a cage to mope and contemplate her moldy feed and peck her own feathers till her chest was bald. You had that sense of Mother sometimes. She'd been a great beauty. She must have hoped for more.
"Men are April when they woo, December when they wed."


Sounds like the Bennet saga continued.

130Apolline
tammikuu 16, 2014, 7:25 am

Thank you, for a very interesting thread! I just found it today, and I will definitely follow your discussion. I have read P&P in English, which is not my first language, so I get to learn a lot by following this thread :) I just have a question to one of the earlier comments regarding Mr. Collins marriage to one of the Bennet girls.

#102:If Mr Collins were to marry one of the daughters of the house, he would have a moral obligation to provide for the others, should it come to that. It's not just Elizabeth marrying per se that's at stake here

Wouldn't it be more sensible or realistic of Mr. Collins to try his luck with Mary instead of Elizabeth, or was he bound to Elizabeth by her being the eldest of the two and not, like Jane, supposed to be engaged anytime soon?

131Nickelini
tammikuu 16, 2014, 2:34 pm

All this talk of Charlotte and Mr Collins reminds me of a very interesting thread from a while back over at the I Love Jane Austen Group that was titled "In Charlotte Lucas's Situation, Would You Marry Mr Collins?" There are a vast range of opinions and information: http://www.librarything.com/topic/65418

132lyzard
tammikuu 16, 2014, 3:45 pm

>>#130

Hi, Bente - welcome! Thank you for joining us. :)

I think that while Mr Collins came to Longbourn with the idea of marrying one of the Bennet girls, Elizabeth's rejection hurt his pride so much that he ended up wanting to punish the family instead. I think this is why he chooses to stay at Longbourn when he comes back to visit Charlotte (see 66.).

If Mr Collins had had a chance to cool down after being rejected he might have come back to Mary, but of course he immediately turned to Charlotte and that was that.

>>#131

Thank you, Joyce! Yes, it's a difficult and depressing question.

133lyzard
tammikuu 16, 2014, 3:51 pm

Ilana - I just realised that you accidentally had two Q63.-s and that I missed the second one, so I've gone back up and edited a response into #125.

134Smiler69
tammikuu 16, 2014, 11:27 pm

>133 lyzard: Thanks Liz, I've seen your response and all I can say is things certainly have changed now thanks in no small part to reality television!

Next round (more comments than questions):

Volume 2, Chapters 1 to 4

Chapter 1

68.
""When is your turn to come? You will hardly bear to be long outdone by Jane. Now is your time. Here are officers enough in Meryton to disappoint all the young ladies in the country. Let Wickham be your man. He is a pleasant fellow, and would jilt you creditably.""

JA can't have given him such great lines if she'd wanted us to dislike Mr Bennet!

Chapter 2

69. Did men who live by trade have reputations of ill breeding and disagreeable characters, or is JA simply slyly referring to the Bingley sisters's disparaging comments?

70. ""But that expression of 'violently in love' is so hackneyed, so doubtful, so indefinite, that it gives me very little idea. It is as often applied to feelings which arise from a half-hour's acquaintance, as to a real, strong attachment. Pray, how violent was Mr. Bingley's love?""

Again, things haven't changed that much. What's the expression that is in use these days? 'I'm so into him/her'? Perhaps not as forceful mind you...

71. "Is not general incivility the very essence of love?"

Another one for my quote book!

Chapter 3

72. Of course I've read what follows so have made up my own mind about what follows, but how likely is it that Jane's letter to Caroline actually did go missing?

Chapter 4

73. "Sir William Lucas, and his daughter Maria, a good-humoured girl, but as empty-headed as himself, had nothing to say that could be worth hearing, and were listened to with about as much delight as the rattle of the chaise."

Ha! We notice though that Elizabeth didn't try to introduce any interesting topics of conversation however...

74. "Pray, my dear aunt, what is the difference in matrimonial affairs, between the mercenary and the prudent motive? Where does discretion end, and avarice begin? Last Christmas you were afraid of his marrying me, because it would be imprudent; and now, because he is trying to get a girl with only ten thousand pounds, you want to find out that he is mercenary."

A theme which is recurrent in Austen's work, or would you say it is particularly dealt with in P&P?

135Smiler69
tammikuu 16, 2014, 11:29 pm

Slightly (or a lot) off topic, but I posted the following on my blog today, for those curious to see just how badly I was bitten by the Folio bug last year: http://fromsmilerwithlove.com/2014/01/16/my-folio-addiction-proof-of/

136Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 17, 2014, 12:27 am

I have a question about the letter Jane writes to Elizabeth (in chapter3). She ands it "Yours," &C
There was an earlier letter that had a similar ending. What does it stand for?

137ForeignCircus
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 17, 2014, 1:18 am

late to the party but loving this thread! I have several copies of P&P (spread throughout 3 different countries at the moment) plus a digital one- I like to reread it a couple of times a year to cleanse my palate.

I have a thought on a question from earlier, #49 using a quotation from Dorothy Sayer's Busman's Honeymoon:
"Now isn't this bowl amusing?... You can see it's Derby by the glaze, but the painting was done by Lady Sarah Wimsey, who married into the Severn-and-Thameses--it's a group of her and her brother and their little dog, and you can recognise the funny little temple, it's the one down by the lake.... They used to sell the white china, you know, to amateur artists, and then it went back to be fired in the factory. It's sensitive work, isn't it? Wimseys are either very sensitive, or not sensitive at all, to things like painting and music."

I always thought the girls were looking a china they had painted (and apparently not well)...

138lyzard
tammikuu 17, 2014, 6:00 am

Volume 2

Chapter 1

68.

Rather, it's Austen showing us how Mr Bennet gets away with his behaviour. :)

Chapter 2

69.

The stereotype of the day would insist that people in trade were incapable of being gentlemanly. Also, as you say, the Bingley sisters are always trying to increase the distance between themselves and the source of the family fortune.

70.

But then, the reason we resort to clichés is that it's very difficult to describe an emotion. :)

Chapter 3

72.

Not unlikely. The postal service was erratic until is was overhauled in the 1850s (a process in which Anthony Trollope was heavily involved, by the way), so a letter going astray was not an uncommon event. Whether we believe that's what happened in this case is another matter!

Chapter 4

73. Perhaps she's tried but failed - or perhaps she knows it's not worth the effort. :)

74. I would agree that it's particularly prominent in P&P, but it does appear to a greater or lesser extent in all of Austen's novels, which reflects how vital an issue this was in the lives of young women.

139lyzard
tammikuu 17, 2014, 6:29 am

>>#136

Formal letter sign-offs in the 19th century were very long and flowery; this was a bit of shorthand in which the long and flowery bits could be taken for granted; it would not have been used in a formal letter but was permissible between friends. Today we still use "yours sincerely" or "yours cordially", but at the time someone might be expected to say something like, "Pray believe me to be, your most humble and respectful servant to command..."

The "&c." is actually the way "etc." was written at the time, so the sign-off reads "Yours etc."

Also note that if someone in a novel reads out "Yours &c." at the end of a letter, they may just be skipping over what's actually written there.

140lyzard
tammikuu 17, 2014, 6:31 am

>>#137

Hi, Colleen - thank you for joining us! Yes, I think pieces of hand-painted china is most likely what the girls are looking at.

141SandDune
tammikuu 17, 2014, 7:40 am

69. I came across this quote a few days ago which may be relevant. Advice dating from 1890s from a MIL to a new bride:

Army or naval officers, diplomats or clergymen might be invited to lunch or dinner. The vicar might be invited regularly to Sunday lunch or supper if he was a gentleman. Doctors and solicitors might be invited to garden parties, though never, of course, to lunch or dinner. Anyone engaged in the arts, the stage, trade or commerce, no matter how well connected, could not be asked to the house at all.

142Apolline
tammikuu 17, 2014, 7:51 am

#132: Yeah, I think the wounded pride would take some time getting over. It was a nasty blow, to put it mildly. I really enjoy this tutorial, and I have started the thread from 2012 you had on Persuasion (my favourite JA). I guess it is time for a reread :)

143Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 17, 2014, 12:25 pm

>Thanks for those instructions, SandDune. They explain the episode of Downtown Abbey in which a world famous singer comes to perform at the Abbey (in the 1920s) and is left to eat her dinner on a tray in her room rather than being seated with the guests who are eager to meet her. The butler has a very stringent, and apparently outdated, code of societal behavior.

144lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 17, 2014, 4:05 pm

Yes, we probably need to recognise that those are both hard-line examples and that there would have been some flexibility and exceptions, certainly by the end of the century. (Writers were usually exempt from the accusation of being involved "in the arts". by the way.) Also, that was advice as to who a young bride was permitted to invite to her house; single men could invite anyone they liked, and likewise men of any position could and would meet all sorts of people. It was only women and the marital home who had to be "protected".

However, as far as P&P goes the positioning of "trade" in Rhian's quote underscores the situation of the Gardiners and emphasises the significance of their interaction with Darcy.

145Oregonreader
tammikuu 17, 2014, 4:54 pm

I just discovered this thread and I am so enjoying it. P & P is my favorite novel and I have read it innumerable times over the last 40 years. I'm not rereading it right now but I will again soon, I'm sure, and the information gained here will give me new insights. Thank you all!

146lyzard
tammikuu 17, 2014, 4:56 pm

Thank you, Jan. Please feel free to ask questions or add any comments of your own.

147Smiler69
tammikuu 17, 2014, 10:04 pm

At once a very short, and a very full day, which isn't yet over, so I'll be back tomorrow with further chapters. Welcome all visitors and thanks for your comments!

>28 Nickelini: Joyce (Nickelini): I brought back Pride and Prejudice: An Annotated Edition from the library today. It really is a very beautiful (and bulky) book. Don't know if I'll have time to do more than glance at it here and there, but either way I'll keep it in mind for a future reread.

148SqueakyChu
tammikuu 18, 2014, 9:44 am

...and I'm still waiting for my copy of P&P that I mooched on BookMooch. It should probably arrive by the time Ilana is done reading it. Oh, well, at least the thread shall remain here. :D

149Smiler69
tammikuu 18, 2014, 4:10 pm

>148 SqueakyChu: Madeline, I don't recall how you feel about eBooks, but you can get it free from Project Gutenberg or Kindle while you wait for the paper copy to arrive...

150SqueakyChu
tammikuu 18, 2014, 9:06 pm

> 149

I avoid ebooks. I'll wait for the paper version.

151Smiler69
tammikuu 19, 2014, 12:20 am

It's very late, but I don't want to skip another day, so here I go with the next round.

Volume 2, Chapters 5 to 8

Chapter 5

75.
I've often heard the expression "beyond the pale", but what are palings actually?

76. "Elizabeth admired the command of countenance with which Charlotte talked of the healthfulness of the exercise, and owned she encouraged it as much as possible. "

Is this Charlotte's way of admitting that she doesn't enjoy Mr Collins's company very much, or is it purely an innocent comment, do you think?

77. "When Mr. Collins could be forgotten, there was really an air of great comfort throughout, and by Charlotte's evident enjoyment of it, Elizabeth supposed he must be often forgotten."

Again, is Elizabeth putting her own interpretation to things or is there any sign this is Charlotte's view as well?

78. Why do Maria and Sir William make such a huge fuss over Miss De Bourgh's visit?


Chapter 6

79.
Even Elizabeth takes special notice of how thin and small Miss De Bourgh is. What was considered a normal range for a young woman's size in terms of approximate height and weight?

80. "placing a screen in the proper direction before her eyes."

There was this mention of a screen shielding the face, or eyes, in Bleak House as well. What was the purpose of this screen and what did it look like / what was it made of?

81. "Elizabeth found that nothing was beneath this great lady's attention, which could furnish her with an occasion of dictating to others."

Only forming a portion of the great lady's many despicable faults...

82. "Elizabeth felt all the impertinence of her questions but answered them very composedly."

We come to this in a further comment again, but Lady Catherine's manners really are quite shocking!

The word 'impertinence': appears 8 times in the novel. 'Impertinent': 6 times.
Also, "Elizabeth felt" something a total of 13 times in the course of the novel, that we know of.

83. I suppose it was rather unusual at the time for a family of the Bennet's social class not to have a governess with so many children in the house. Why would they have skimped on one? It isn't as if they're destitute.

84. "Four nieces of Mrs. Jenkinson are most delightfully situated through my means; and it was but the other day that I recommended another young person, who was merely accidentally mentioned to me, and the family are quite delighted with her."

Not only is Lady Catherine rude, but she's also stupid (probably stemming from a feeling she can do no wrong). I've often noticed those two faults go hand in hand.


Chapter 7

85.
"Sir William stayed only a week at Hunsford, but his visit was long enough to convince him of his daughter's being most comfortably settled,

I detect a note of sarcasm on the part of the author here... but is it possible that Sir William actually enjoys Mr Colllins's company?

86. "Very few days passed in which Mr. Collins did not walk to Rosings, and not many in which his wife did not think it necessary to go likewise; and till Elizabeth recollected that there might be other family livings to be disposed of, she could not understand the sacrifice of so many hours."

I don't understand this comment on the whole, and especially not the part I've indicated in bold.

87. "and if she accepted any refreshment, seemed to do it only for the sake of finding out that Mrs. Collins's joints of meat were too large for her family."

a) Were refreshments offered only in the form of drinks or did they include food as well?
b) How would lady Catherine have seen the size of their portions of meat (unless she was served meat)?

88. "Elizabeth soon perceived, that though this great lady was not in commission of the peace of the county, she was a most active magistrate in her own parish, the minutest concerns of which were carried to her by Mr. Collins; and whenever any of the cottagers were disposed to be quarrelsome, discontented, or too poor, she sallied forth into the village to settle their differences, silence their complaints, and scold them into harmony and plenty."

There's a lot going on here.

a) What does "being in the commission of peace" for a county mean?
b) Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all just be scolded into plenty?? Stupid woman!
c) Which reminds me to bring up a comment I saw in the annotated text when I had a peek at a sample chapter, in which it is suggested that Lady Catherine provides a good example of what Mrs Bennet might have turned out like had she benefitted from similar wealth and social standing.


Chapter 8

89.
"it was plain that their company was by no means so acceptable as when she could get nobody else"

No comment. Too many things crowding my head at once.

90. "Colonel Fitzwilliam seemed really glad to see them; anything was a welcome relief to him at Rosings"

Are we to understand that he doesn't enjoy his visits to Rosings very much usually? And if so, no wonder!

91. "There are few people in England, I suppose, who have more true enjoyment of music than myself, or a better natural taste. If I had ever learnt, I should have been a great proficient."

She's a great one for conjecture! Besides which, she shows us soon enough that she doesn't care for music one bit...

92. "Mr. Darcy looked a little ashamed of his aunt's ill-breeding"

Any idea what could be the root cause of this ill breeding?

93. "Anne would have been a delightful performer, had her health allowed her to learn."

Here she goes with her assertions again. Besides which, what kind of illness could prevent Anne from learning to play the piano? I know with my migraines I am quite limited in the kinds of music I can listen to, mind you.

152lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 19, 2014, 3:12 am

Chapter 5

75. "The Pale" was the part of Ireland that was under English control during the Middle Ages. "Pale" derived from palus, the Latin word for stake, from which we also derive "paling" (as in a paling fence). To go "beyond the Pale" originally meant to go beyond a boundary; now it is used more figuratively to mean "to go beyond what can be tolerated or forgiven".

76. & 77. In both of these we are getting Elizabeth's interpretation ("Elizabeth supposed..."), but there's no reason to imagine she isn't reading Charlotte's behaviour correctly. Charlotte is holding up her end of the marital bargain by putting the best face on everything and finding positive reasons for what she does - like encouraging Mr Collins to take up gardening for his health, rather than because she wants him out of the house as much as possible.

78. Sir William is a social climber and a sucker-up. Remember him asking Darcy if he danced at St James', and calculating when Mr Collins and Charlotte might be presented at court? Miss De Bourgh is related to the aristocracy and therefore he (and Maria following his example) make a huge fuss about her.

Chapter 6

79. It's hard to estimate, but people then were generally shorter and smaller than they are now.

In this case, Elizabeth is sizing Miss de Bourgh up as a wife for Darcy.

80. A screen was placed in front of a fire to shield people from the direct light and heat. You could hold a small personal one, or there were larger ones on stands that sat in front of the fireplace. In this case it sounds as if the screen is being placed to suit Miss De Bourgh, and too bad about everyone else.

82. The children were only girls, so probably their education wasn't considered that important. Dispensing with a governess was a way of cutting costs and having one less person in the house.

Chapter 7

85. No, on the contrary: he is reassured that Charlotte has everything she married for, and that she will be well provided for in the future.

Sir William is rather like Mr Collins, so he probably isn't bothered by him. He would certainly be personally gratified by having a Lady Catherine to butt into his affairs, and probably genuinely thinks Charlotte is lucky to have her.

86. Clergymen at the time had "livings" - that is, were placed in a district, to oversee the parish in which they lived, preached and worked. These livings were generally at the disposal of the wealthy people in the district, who could give them to any clergyman they liked; it was hard for a clergyman to get a living without "connections". Livings were often given to members of the "ruling" family; many younger sons became clergymen because it was considered one of the few respectable professions (see #151 above, about the vicar being invited on Sundays).

In this case, as there are no young men to be provided for in Lady Catherine's family, she has given Mr Collins the living at Hunsford (after some mighty sucking up on his part, we imagine). Seeing that holding the living has made no difference to Mr Collins' attentions to Lady Catherine, and that now Charlotte is expected to do the same, Elizabeth imagines that there might be other young men in the Collins family who will need a living in the future, and for whose benefit the Collinses are continuing to court Lady Catherine's good graces.

87. "Refreshments" could be anything, though it was usual to offer food as well as drink. Here it sounds as if the Collinses don't dare offer Lady Catherine anything less than a full sit-down dinner - hence the remark about the size of the joint.

88. At the time there was little by way of formal law enforcement in England (at least as we now understand it), and particularly in the country. Gentlemen of standing in the district would be appointed justices of the peace, and would act as magistrates, overseeing legal matters as part of a panel; this was also called "being in commission of the peace of the county".

Lady Catherine is not actually "in commission of the peace of the county", being a woman, but she is "a most active magistrate" in that she knows everyone's business and likes to butt in and "make rulings", as we see in the next few paragraphs.

The vital importance of Lady Catherine in context is that for all of the sneering and jeering at people in trade, we see that members of the aristocracy can be every bit as rude, ill-bred, and generally badly behaved. :)

Chapter 8

89. Instead of behaving towards her guests with proper politeness (or at least "condescension"), as she does when they are her only guests, Lady Catherine ignores them to concentrate on her nephews. Another instance of her bad manners, and doubly so since guests were supposed to take precedence over family.

90. Yes! - and as you say, no wonder. :)

92. Darcy has some things to say about his own upbringing later on which touches upon this, but here it is probably safe to assume that his mother, Lady Anne, and Lady Catherine (as daughters of an Earl) were brought up to consider themselves immensely superior to ordinary people, and that therefore that need not waste manners on their inferiors.

We spoke earlier about "proper" and "improper" condescension; this is an example of "improper", as opposed to "proper", pride (a phrase which is used much later in the novel).

93. Anne's health seems to be used as an excuse to explain why she doesn't play the piano, a standard female accomplishment. Whether that's actually the reason is another matter. (Maybe she just sucks at it??)

153Smiler69
tammikuu 19, 2014, 9:55 pm

Wonderful round of answers. I've learned a lot today. I'm not entirely sure when I'll be back with the next instalment, would like to say tomorrow but I've a busy day so that's doubtful. In any case, all are welcome to comment on the chapters we've covered so far!

154Smiler69
tammikuu 21, 2014, 9:55 pm

The migraine today especially beastly, so couldn't read and take notes much. Managed two chapters all the same and I do feel a responsibility to keep this thread going no matter what, so here we go with my few notes:

Volume 2, Chapters 9 and 10

94.
"she was startled by a ring at the door, the certain signal of a visitor."

What else could it be a signal of?

95. Why does Darcy take the liberty of letting himself in?

96. "As he spoke there was a sort of smile which Elizabeth fancied she understood; he must be supposing her to be thinking of Jane and Netherfield, and she blushed as she answered"

I take it he's supposed to have something else in mind... what could that be? (if it's a spoiler I hope you'll tell me all the same!)

97. "He was beyond comparison the most pleasant man; he certainly admired her, and his situation in life was most eligible; but, to counterbalance these advantages, Mr. Darcy had considerable patronage in the church, and his cousin could have none at all."

What is this business of patronage in the church and how does it affect their options?

98. Why is Darcy acting so very strangely during his visit? Did he really expect to find all the women there? His behaviour isn't even excusable if he were feeling shy!

99. I'm curious to know among the lurkers if anyone at this point can even remotely like Darcy.

Quite frankly, it brings me back to think that Sebastian Faulks probably made a good point about explaining Darcy's strangeness in the intro to my edition, which I mentioned in #18 as a potential spoiler. Here is the comment again:

"Bingley suggests his friend is the victim of a morbid melancholy: 'I declare I do not know a more aweful object than Darcy, on particular occasions, and in particular places; at his own house especially, and of a Sunday evening when he has nothing to do.' But Darcy seldom has anything to do. He sportingly suggests Elizabeth's uncle go fishing on his estate at Pemberley, but never picks up a rod himself.
A good deal of Darcy's behaviour becomes more explicable if we view him as suffering from a kind of clinical depression."

100. And why is Fitzwilliam acting so strangely too? He seems so much more normal than Darcy!

155lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 21, 2014, 10:31 pm

That's okay, Ilana. If you need to take a break, do so - it's your tutored read! - don't force yourself if you're not feeling up to it.

94. Nothing: she's startled there's a visitor at all that early in the day; most calls were made in the afternoon or evening.

95. He doesn't let himself into the house (a servant would admit him); he lets himself into the room where Elizabeth is sitting without bothering to get a servant to announce him first.

We might question whether he *really* believed that all the ladies were within (the servant who let him in probably told him they weren't...).

96. We don't and can't know definitely what he is thinking of; we might guess later on.

97. This goes back to 87. and the business of church livings being at the disposal of wealthy landowners. Apparently having bought into Mr Collins' view of the world, Charlotte would prefer Elizabeth to marry a rich man with influence and perhaps livings to dispose of. (She might be thinking of a male relative, *or* she might be thinking of another living for Mr Collins at a distance from Lady Catherine...)

98. See 95. This scene is usually interpreted as Darcy in the last throes of his struggle NOT to fall for Elizabeth, and the weird little debate about distances is him wondering if he can separate her from her objectionable family.

There's probably too much going on in his head to make his external behaviour acceptable.

99. I would suggest that at this point we are not necessarily meant to like him.

BUT---and this is very important---consider how very seldom as we read we are let inside Darcy's head. We hardly ever hear what he is thinking. Compare it to the endless paragraphs we spend following Elizabeth's thought processes. Rather, we are constantly told what other people think Darcy is thinking - particularly Elizabeth, who is, as we know, *prejudiced* against him (not without cause) and constantly puts her own spin on his actions. That "sort of smile" you noticed in 96. is a perfect example: we don't know what it means; we only know what Elizabeth "fancied she understood". This goes on in a subtle way all throughout the text and skews our perceptions.

On a personal note, I will add that I at least feel sorry for Darcy, due to this in Chapter 31:

"I certainly have not the talent which some people possess," said Darcy, "of conversing easily with those I have never seen before. I cannot catch their tone of conversation, or appear interested in their concerns, as I often see done."

I am exactly the same myself, and completely understand how he feels! I couldn't tell you the number of times in my life I've been asked why I'm so cranky, or sulky, or if I'm feeling sick, just because I'm quiet when other people are talking. Furthermore, I absolutely suck at small talk. Probably if I'd lived two hundred years ago, I'd've been accused of being "a proud, unpleasant sort of {wo}man", as Darcy is. :)

It's important, though, to note how the people who know him best react to him. I read that passage you quote quite differently. I would say that Bingley is making fun of him; that he doesn't seem to mind is a mark in his favour. As for him having nothing to do, on Sundays no-one was supposed to partake of normal leisure activities; perhaps Darcy is more observant of the Sabbath than Bingley? Darcy is a wealthy landowner and most of his duties would lie there; otherwise like all members of the upper classes at the time, he has what seems to us an inordinate amount of leisure time.

Also, note this:

Mrs. Collins knew not what to make of him. Colonel Fitzwilliam's occasionally laughing at his stupidity, proved that he was generally different, which her own knowledge of him could not have told her...

Just a brief insight, but an important one. He behaves differently around people he's comfortable with.

All that said, I'm not making excuses for all Darcy's behaviour. He's got a lot to learn. Then again, so does Elizabeth...

100. That you will definitely get an explanation for later.

156Nickelini
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 21, 2014, 11:16 pm

I came to bring some aside notes, but then I found this interesting exchange. I may be back with comments if I have time.

1. But what I came to say, was that when I read P&P this past December, I noticed how close to the perfect novel it was: by that I mean that every sentence serves to define character or move the story forward. No detail is redundant and there is no filler.

2. Ever since I studied Austen at uni (Mansfield Park), I've been fascinated by her writing style and sentence structure. In particular, I'm interested in her use of indirect free discourse--her unexpected switches of perspective, or the instances of the narrator's point of view. The more I read her, the more I can see it, and I wonder, "did Austen know how genius this was"?!

157Smiler69
tammikuu 22, 2014, 7:56 pm

95. I forget all about the servants, since of course there is no mention of them. This is where the film and tv adaptations help me fill in the blanks, because I have a very limited imagination and don't easily fill in where there are no details given!

97. Do you know, the notion of church livings comes up yet again in the next chapters and I'm still struggling to understand the mechanics of it. How did this contribute to their earnings? What did it involve in terms of work, other than visits? Whatever details you can give me would be helpful.

99. Yes, I saw your comment about introverts on Suzanne's thread as well. I can certainly understand that kind of personality, since I tend to be like that as well, rather reserved when I don't know someone and preferring to sit quietly in a corner and reading by myself when there are gatherings. But I have had to learn certain 'people' skills when I was art directing and being flown around like an important executives, so I've learned a bit about the science of small talk, which I often use to engage with people I see daily, in shops and such. But otherwise from that perspective I suppose I can understand Darcy better. He's just so extremely awkward!

I've read chapters 11 to 13 today, so comments are coming up next.

158Smiler69
tammikuu 22, 2014, 8:18 pm

Volume 2, Chapters 11 to 13

101.
"His sense of her inferiority—of its being a degradation—of the family obstacles which had always opposed to inclination, were dwelt on with a warmth which seemed due to the consequence he was wounding, but was very unlikely to recommend his suit."

I think I understand the general sense of this sentence, but I can't make out the particulars and especially the part in bold is very confusing to me. I do often find with JA that her turns of phrase have me stumped and rereading over and over to make out what she is saying. Is that just me? Am I not smart enough for her?

Chapter 12 (aka The Letter)

102.
"But amidst your concern for the defects of your nearest relations, and your displeasure at this representation of them, let it give you consolation to consider that, to have conducted yourselves so as to avoid any share of the like censure, is praise no less generally bestowed on you and your elder sister, than it is honourable to the sense and disposition of both. "

I finally understood this, but here again had to read over many many times before it made sense to me! Why so convoluted? Or are we to take it that Darcy's manner of expressing himself is so?

103. "but on the decease of the incumbent of the living which had been designed for him"

Does 'decease' here apply as a legal term? Another sentence which has me stumped!

Chapter 13

104.
"With amazement did she first understand that he believed any apology to be in his power; and steadfastly was she persuaded, that he could have no explanation to give, which a just sense of shame would not conceal."

And again! I remember being extremely frustrated when I read P&P the first time in finding I couldn't at all make out what I know perfectly well to be English, but I wouldn't say plain English!

105. "His attentions to Miss King were now the consequence of views solely and hatefully mercenary; and the mediocrity of her fortune proved no longer the moderation of his wishes, but his eagerness to grasp at anything."

And again...

159lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 22, 2014, 8:19 pm

>>#157

97. It was a hugely important issue, both from a religious point of view and a purely practical, career point of view.

A clergyman's duties at the time were to preach a number of sermons per week, to (as Mr Collins says), marry, christen and bury his parishioners, to call upon his parishioners (to get to know them and perhaps to push them into better religious observance) and to oversee the general behaviour of his parish and the welfare of the people in it. They were often involved in overseeing a district's schools, sometimes in a purely religious capacity, sometimes with a more broadly educational role.

At the time, a clergyman's "living" consisted (usually) of an annual income, a house and garden, some land, a church in which to give sermons, and a parish (district) for which he was responsible in religious matters and the community's needs. These livings were not under the control of the Church, but belonged to the wealthy landowners, who could give them to whoever they liked.

Often a single landowner could control several livings, and young men of the family would be encouraged to enter the church because they could be sure there would be a living made available to them. However, other young clergymen without connections had to wait and hope, and often work as curates for the clergymen that did hold livings (meaning they did a lot of the work for a much lower salary, and without a permanent home).

Theoretically a clergyman was independent, but there was often a feeling of obligation towards the person who had given them the living which could make things awkward, particularly if that person (like Lady Catherine) is given to interfering in parish matters.

99. I think Darcy is an introvert, but on the other hand there were certain behaviours that were expected at the time, that were part of a gentleman's "duty", that he neglects (like dancing at a party if men were in short supply), and in that respect he is certainly in the wrong.

160Smiler69
tammikuu 22, 2014, 8:20 pm

The Letter
From the 2013 Folio Society edition, illustration by the Balbusso Twins.

161lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 22, 2014, 11:18 pm

Chapter 11

101. You're certainly not the only one to struggle with that! - though I always have to defend JA by pointing out she's writing perfectly correct, perfectly grammatical English. :)

We've just drifted so far from that, in terms of the use of certain words and the structuring of sentences, it can be hard to grasp her meaning at a first glance.

In this case "consequence" means Darcy's consequence - his importance, his social prominence, his high birth. He is wounding it by choosing a wife below him in all of those ways, when his position would have allowed him to marry a woman of birth / breeding / fortune / connections.

Basically he's telling Elizabeth how flattered she should be he's proposing, and how low he's stooping to do it. He might be right but, as we are told, it's an approach that was very unlikely to recommend his suit (i.e. induce Elizabeth to say 'yes').

102. See 101. It's only convoluted to modern eyes used to Twitter and text-speak. :)

I'm reading a lot of late 17th century texts at the moment - there was no standardisation of spelling, capitalisation or punctuation; dialogue was rendered without inverted commas; run-on sentences were at their peak; and paragraphs could go for pages. I come from that to Austen and she's crystal-clear to me; but of course, if you've been reading a lot of modern texts, she can seem perfectly impenetrable.

103. "The incumbent of a living" is the clergyman holding that living at a given time; "decease" was often used at the time rather than "death".

In this case, Mr Wickham has chosen not to take religious orders (become a clergyman), even though Mr Darcy's father would have given him a living. However, when the clergyman holding that living ("the incumbent") dies, Wickham shows up again demanding it, even though he has taken money from Darcy in exchange for giving up his claim to the living.

Chapter 13

104. "She was astonished to learn he thought there was anything he could say that might make her forgive him. She refused to believe that there was any explanation he could give that would not show him to be even more guilty than she already believed him to be."

105. Back when Elizabeth and Mrs Gardner were making excuses for Wickham when he started pursuing Miss King after she inherited some money (Chapter 27, the debate about prudent vs mercenary motives), Elizabeth suggested that he was not so very mercenary ("the moderation of his wishes", i.e. he didn't want that much), because Miss King's fortune wasn't that big ("the mediocrity of her fortune"). Now she backflips and decides he must be so very mercenary, he'll settle for any woman with any money.

162lyzard
tammikuu 22, 2014, 8:43 pm

>>#160

Beautiful, Ilana!

163lyzard
tammikuu 22, 2014, 9:03 pm

Pride AND prejudice:

    She grew absolutely ashamed of herself. Of neither Darcy nor Wickham could she think without feeling she had been blind, partial, prejudiced, absurd.
    "How despicably I have acted!" she cried; "I, who have prided myself on my discernment! I, who have valued myself on my abilities! who have often disdained the generous candour of my sister, and gratified my vanity in useless or blameable mistrust! How humiliating is this discovery! Yet, how just a humiliation! Had I been in love, I could not have been more wretchedly blind! But vanity, not love, has been my folly. Pleased with the preference of one, and offended by the neglect of the other, on the very beginning of our acquaintance, I have courted prepossession and ignorance, and driven reason away, where either were concerned. Till this moment I never knew myself."


164Smiler69
tammikuu 22, 2014, 10:58 pm

>161 lyzard: Aha. That clarifies quite a lot. And yes, you being used to reading 17th century texts certainly gives you a decided advantage over me in understanding Jane Austen's turns of phrase. I get so tangled up that I fail to recognize even words which are perfectly familiar to me in their intended use. This is not a comment I've ever seen or heard anyone make about her books, so I've often worried that I might lack some intellectually development or have some sort of reading disability. That being said, I do read much more modern books compared to you of course, but I imagine I must read quite a lot more 19th century classics than the population at large. I've always been intimidated by earlier literature for just those reasons you give, be it in English or French for that matter, both or which are my mother tongues but which have evolved considerably over time.

165lyzard
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 4, 2014, 12:14 am

Weren't you just reading (and giggling over, naughty girl!) The Book Of Common Prayer? How did you go with that?

Which reminds me, the other thing about 17th century texts is that they do all use the long 's', so you can add that to the mix.

I think over the course of the 19th century there were a lot of changes around education and literacy and standardisation of language, so that later books tend to be a bit "easier" (if a lot longer!).

I'm now wondering about your reading of French classics in French? How do you find your comprehension of 19th centure French literature, for example?

166Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 24, 2014, 1:50 pm

>165 lyzard: Liz, you're right, you caught me being a bad girl, when I amused myself the other day reading the good book while pronouncing all the long 's' sounds as 'f'. But I didn't read very much of it, just extracts here and there, so I couldn't say how comfortable I'd be reading pages and pages of 17th century English at a go.

19th century French literature is just as easy to read as English from the same period. In both cases, the language is more formal, but close enough to what we know now. In French, there are verb conjugations no longer in common use, such as the subjunctive imperfect which are still easily understandable, but very dated. As with English, I haven't read much literature predating the 19th century, though had no difficultly at all recently with Les Liaisons Dangereuses which is late 18th c so perhaps doesn't count. I did try reading a few essays by Michel de Montaigne some time ago. This is rather a challenge in the original text, when spelling was also unpredictable; a ‘u’ was used in lieu of ‘v’ and the subjunctive imperfect was king. There are translations into modern French available, but I find these don’t have nearly the same charm, so when I do decide to sit down and properly read the full essays, I think I will stick to the original 16th century version and make the best of it.

eta: I finished Volume 2 of P&P last night but it was too late to type up my questions, so this is coming up next.

167Smiler69
tammikuu 24, 2014, 2:28 pm

Volume 2, Chapters 14 to 19

Chapter 14

106.
"The two gentlemen left Rosings the next morning, and Mr. Collins having been in waiting near the lodges, to make them his parting obeisance, was able to bring home the pleasing intelligence, of their appearing in very good health, and in as tolerable spirits as could be expected, after the melancholy scene so lately gone through at Rosings."

What melancholy scene are were referring to here? Is this to be taken humorously as Mr Collins's interpretation of events? Or were the two gentlemen indeed sad to go, though for very different reasons than Mr Collins might imagine?

Word stats: the word 'melancholy' appears 5 times in the novel.

107. "You know I always speak my mind, and I cannot bear the idea of two young women travelling post by themselves."

a) I forget what 'traveling post' meant.
b) Was it unusual for young women to travel this way unaccompanied?
c) Is there some joke here I'm missing? For instance, she's telling them they should have a servant, but should she be the one offering one of her own if she were a truly caring hostess?

108. "When my niece Georgiana went to Ramsgate last summer, I made a point of her having two men-servants go with her. Miss Darcy, the daughter of Mr. Darcy, of Pemberley, and Lady Anne, could not have appeared with propriety in a different manner."

Much good did the servants do her since they couldn't protect her from Wickham!

Who is Lady Anne?

109. "Lady Catherine had many other questions to ask respecting their journey, and as she did not answer them all herself, attention was necessary"

Delicious!

110. "Reflection must be reserved for solitary hours; whenever she was alone, she gave way to it as the greatest relief; and not a day went by without a solitary walk, in which she might indulge in all the delight of unpleasant recollections."

Delight? Is this meant facetiously?

Chapter 16

111.
""Yes," thought Elizabeth, "that would be a delightful scheme indeed, and completely do for us at once. Good Heaven! Brighton, and a whole campful of soldiers, to us, who have been overset already by one poor regiment of militia, and the monthly balls of Meryton!""

I don't quite understand this passage. And she's being sarcastic here I believe when she says 'delightful', yes?

112. Why is there a special mention made of the waiter at the inn when the younger sisters 'treat' Elizabeth and Jane to lunch? I'm asking because there is no special mention of domestics anywhere else, so what point is JA trying to make here?

113. "Elizabeth was shocked to think that, however incapable of such coarseness of expression herself, the coarseness of the sentiment was little other than her own breast had harboured and fancied liberal!"

What is the sense of 'liberal' in this context?

114. "Kitty and me were to spend the day there, and Mrs. Forster promised to have a little dance in the evening; (by the bye, Mrs. Forster and me are such friends!) and so she asked the two Harringtons to come, but Harriet was ill, and so Pen was forced to come by herself; and then, what do you think we did? We dressed up Chamberlayne in woman's clothes on purpose to pass for a lady, only think what fun!"

Who are the Harringtons and Chamberlayne?

115. "Lady Lucas was inquiring of Maria, after the welfare and poultry of her eldest daughter"

Would she really ask about her daughter's welfare and her poultry in the same sentence? What am I missing here?

Chapter 17

116.
""Oh! no, my regret and compassion are all done away by seeing you so full of both. I know you will do him such ample justice, that I am growing every moment more unconcerned and indifferent. Your profusion makes me saving; and if you lament over him much longer, my heart will be as light as a feather.""

Another passage I find delightful!

And another:

"I shall always say he used my daughter extremely ill; and if I was her, I would not have put up with it. Well, my comfort is, I am sure Jane will die of a broken heart; and then he will be sorry for what he has done."
But as Elizabeth could not receive comfort from any such expectation, she made no answer."


What does she mean when she says she 'would not have put up with it'?

Chapter 18

117.
""Lydia will never be easy until she has exposed herself in some public place or other, and we can never expect her to do it with so little expense or inconvenience to her family as under the present circumstances."

He really has great lines!

What does he mean by 'expose herself'?

Chapter 19

118.
"Had Elizabeth's opinion been all drawn from her own family, she could not have formed a very pleasing opinion of conjugal felicity or domestic comfort. Her father, captivated by youth and beauty, and that appearance of good humour which youth and beauty generally give, had married a woman whose weak understanding and illiberal mind had very early in their marriage put an end to all real affection for her."

Here we come back to the point you've been highlighting since the beginning, about the examples of 'bad' marriages before Elizabeth.

What is meant by an 'illiberal mind' in this context?

119. "This is not the sort of happiness which a man would in general wish to owe to his wife; but where other powers of entertainment are wanting, the true philosopher will derive benefit from such as are given."

'True Philosopher' is meant to be sarcastic here I believe?

120. "With the mention of Derbyshire there were many ideas connected. It was impossible for her to see the word without thinking of Pemberley and its owner. "But surely," said she, "I may enter his county with impunity, and rob it of a few petrified spars without his perceiving me.""

What does this mean?

121. "The possibility of meeting Mr. Darcy, while viewing the place, instantly occurred. It would be dreadful! She blushed at the very idea, and thought it would be better to speak openly to her aunt than to run such a risk. But against this there were objections; and she finally resolved that it could be the last resource, if her private inquiries to the absence of the family were unfavourably answered."

What objections might those be?

168lyzard
tammikuu 24, 2014, 3:45 pm

>>#166

That's interesting about the French and the variant spellings and verbs.

I find with texts of that period that my brain "adjusts" to the writing after a few pages, and that it's much easier to read them in a solid block than in bits and pieces. If I do the latter I have to go through the adjustment over and over which is time-consuming and annoying.

169lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 24, 2014, 5:22 pm

>>#167

Good heavens! :)

Chapter 14

106. Mr Collins is putting his own interpretation on events: he assumes that anyone leaving Rosings must be terribly sad about having to go.

Mind you, Darcy may well be looking a little the worse for wear: "The dear Colonel rallied his spirits tolerably till just at last; but Darcy seemed to feel it most acutely, more, I think, than last year. His attachment to Rosings certainly increases."

:)

107.
(a) Travelling in a hired, covered carriage with two or four horses. There were inns called "posting inns" which as part of their business kept carriage horses for hire; you travelled a certain distance with one set of horses and then stopped at a posting inn to change them.

(b) It was usual in all situations for women to be accompanied by a servant or servants. The girls are not actually going to be unaccompanied; Sir William is sending a manservant to escort them. (It's a while before Elizabeth can get a word in edge-wise to say so).

(c) Yes---as usual she's making someone else meet her responsibility, telling Charlotte she ought to send a servant. If she were really concerned she should offer her own servant, which she can much better afford to in terms of both the expense and being able to spare someone.

108. That's not the kind of "attack" that servants are supposed to prevent!

Lady Anne was Lady Catherine's sister, the late mother of Darcy and Georgiana.

110. Yes; presumably Elizabeth has been busy enough up until now not to dwell on the Darcy situation but now she has a long boring road-trip in front of her and nothing else to think about.

Chapter 16

111. Very sarcastic, yes.

In the wake of Darcy's letter, Elizabeth's consciousness of not just the bad behaviour of the members of her family itself, but how that reflects upon the family as a whole, has significantly increased.

She has seen how Lydia behaved among the soldiers stationed at Meryton (flirting, running after them, etc.); if Lydia gets to go to Brighton her opportunities for behaving recklessly and getting talked about will increase enormously, and so will the consequent embarrassment of being related to her.

All this goes back to what we said early on about how easy it was for a woman to come to be regarded as "unmarriageable". She could behave perfectly, yet be considered an unfit wife because of bad behaviour by her relatives; no-one wanted "connections" who caused trouble or whose conduct was poor. Elizabeth isn't necessarily thinking in terms of marriage here (although on a subconscious level, she may well be), but she is now painfully aware of how she and Jane, despite their own excellent conduct and manners, are getting tarred with the brush of their family's behaviour.

112. Precisely because he is not a family servant. At the time the correct procedure was to keep the conversation to harmless small talk while the servants were in the room. We can imagine that at Longbourn this protocol is rarely followed, between Mrs Bennet and Lydia; here, Jane and Elizabeth send the waiter away so that he doesn't overhear Lydia's indiscreet conversation. Also, with, A certain person we both like, Elizabeth knows Lydia is going to start talking about Wickham.

113. Broad-minded, generous, non-judgemental. She realises she is also guilty of mentally condemning Miss King as a "nasty little freckled thing" out of jealousy, if not perhaps in those exact words.

114. Mutual acquaintances of Lydia and her friend Mrs Foster; from the context, two sisters and a young man.

The point of this passage is to highlight Lydia's habitually indiscreet interactions with young men---and of course her bad grammar! :)

115. It's a reflection of the level at which Lady Lucas's mind operates. (And an indication of the kind of thing Charlotte married Mr Collins to get away from.)

Chapter 17

116. As usual, she doesn't really mean anything. She probably imagines herself fighting for her rights in a similar situation, but in fact there was nothing a young woman could do when a young man "sheered off", and this is why it was extremely important for her to be guarded in her behaviour when apparently being courted.

Chapter 18

117. Humiliate herself publicly; go so far in her bad behaviour as to wreck her reputation altogether.

He has great lines, but the lack of concern he shows here with Lydia's behaviour is disgraceful.

Chapter 19

118. Yes, that passage is very important - both from the point of view of Elizabeth's opinions and experience, and for what it tells us about the circumstances of the Bennet marriage.

"Illiberal" in this context means vulgar and ignorant.

I think it's important that we stop here for a moment that consider the gulf that exists between Mr Gardiner and his sisters, Mrs Bennet and Mrs Phillips. Although it generally manifests as Elizabeth being relieved she has one relative who isn't embarrassing, we shouldn't overlook the fact that, clearly, all of the Gardiner family's money and attention were poured into the son, while the daughters were completely neglected. Mr Gardiner is "gentlemanly", a well-bred, educated man; his sisters are ignorant and under-bred. This is a typical example of the differing attitudes towards boys and girls and the way resources were apportioned.

119. Yes. On one hand the expression suggests a certain wry amusement at Mr Bennet's version of "making the best of things", but on the other it is quietly condemning his behaviour as ungenerous towards his wife.

We can't know how much of Mrs Bennet's own behaviour is the result neglect and teasing, but it certainly must have contributed something towards making her what she is.

120. Derbyshire, where Pemberley is located, was (and is) famous for its limestone caverns and its mineral deposits. "Petrified spars" is a reference to fluorspar, or fluorite, a glass-like, crystalline mineral that comes in a range of colours and was prized as a decorative specimen. At the time its colour and tendency to fluoresce was believed to be the result of petrification (conversion of organic matter to stone).

121. A variety of them. :)

Elizabeth can't explain her objections to visiting Pemberley without revealing what happened between herself and Darcy, and she doesn't want to do that for several reasons. It was considered highly improper for a girl to reveal that she had a proposal of marriage if she rejected the man, so first there's that. Then there's her knowledge of Darcy's interference between Jane and Bingley, and her own consciousness of the justness of Darcy's criticisms of her family. Finally, there's her knowledge of Wickham's past bad behaviour, which she doesn't feel she should be telling to a third party.

So all in all, it's a subject she'd rather avoid!

170Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 24, 2014, 8:12 pm

108. That's not the kind of "attack" that servants are supposed to prevent!

Of course not, I'm aware of that but all the same, that's the thought that came to mind.

As for Lady Anne, I must have missed the part where there is a mention of her having passed away in the last year, because I have no memory of that at all.

114. and of course her bad grammar!

I use very poor grammar too, so didn't notice it until you mentioned it because I never got that 'me' vs 'I' thing straight either. Though I tend to always say 'so and so and I' and never 'me'.

115. Aha, yes! JA can be very subtle, and this is an example where I can see rereading her books must pay off.

117. He has great lines, but the lack of concern he shows here with Lydia's behaviour is disgraceful.

Yes, much agreed of course. This is where we are starting to get into the territory of what upset me so much when I read P&P the first time. I didn't know when we started the tutorial whether it made sense for me to reveal what had made me so upset and caused me to throw the book against the wall, because I thought it might be too personal or not really à propos, but I see that while it is indeed personal, it is in fact completely on topic. So in response to your comment, my first thought was that while I agree with you, the sad truth nowadays is that the standards of 'normal' parenting are really shocking and too many (most) parents let their kids get away with anything, which of course leads to very bad behaviour. But what hit too close to home is that my own parents were ahead of their time in that sense, and have never had a clue of what their true responsibilities were, being liberal to the extreme; in fact beyond liberal, making a point of being outside the norm in every imaginable way and giving me very little proper guidance as far as what behaviour was and wasn't acceptable, or in any case, not able to exert discipline in an effective way. Without going into too much detail, this had disastrous consequences for me when I was Lydia's age, so disastrous in fact that I continue to this day to wonder what my life might have turned out like had I been better protected from myself, and am certain things could only have been easier and smoother from my teens and in my adult life. I'm not saying this to dwell on matters or to court sympathy or pity, only that it is very much part of my life still, since I am in fact unable to live a fully functional life and continue to resent the extreme liberality my parents still cling to, so that it's almost impossible for me to read about this sort of parallel situation without being terribly affected. Back to Mr Bennet's disgraceful lack of concern, I could well say that my own father has often made him seem like a model of good parenting.

118. we shouldn't overlook the fact that, clearly, all of the Gardiner family's money and attention were poured into the son, while the daughters were completely neglected. Mr Gardiner is "gentlemanly", a well-bred, educated man; his sisters are ignorant and under-bred. This is a typical example of the differing attitudes towards boys and girls and the way resources were apportioned.

Yes, very good point. And I guess this is a more concrete example of where P&P stops being a simple parlour romance and becomes a biting social commentary. I'm glad you've pointed this out about the Gardiner family, because I don't think I would have made the connection by myself.

119. We can't know how much of Mrs Bennet's own behaviour is the result neglect and teasing, but it certainly must have contributed something towards making her what she is.

I disagree with you here. I would venture to say that since we know Lydia is her mother's favourite, it follows that Mrs Bennet sees a lot of herself in her daughter. Since she obviously takes delight in Lydia's bad behaviour and even encourages it, it also follows that the mother has probably always been undisciplined and selfish, so that Mr Bennet would probably not have had to do anything at all, to make her what she is today. I would even go as far as to say that even if she had had a perfect husband she would still have turned into an impossible, stupid, selfish and neurotic woman.

120. Oh yes, I see now, lots of beautiful images of fluorite on google, such as this:

 

121. Well, since you put it that way... ;-)

eta: fixed one of the two images which was disappearing. Let me know if you have trouble viewing.

171lyzard
tammikuu 24, 2014, 8:34 pm

Ooh, okay; I appreciate why you're sensitive about certain aspects of this novel.

I guess I should just emphasise that anything I say at this point is entirely to do with the novel, and not intended as any reflection upon your own situation.

108. She didn't die within the last year; just some time in the past, we don't know when.

119. No, I disagree with that. These days we tend to resent the suggestion that husbands ought to "control" or even "guide" their wives, but at the time the disparity in upbringing and experience between the sexes was so great (as we see with the Gardiners) that it could be regarded as a proper husbandly responsibility - and particularly for a husband who has married foolishly.

Clearly Mrs Bennet at the time of her marriage was young and stupid; but instead of trying to show her a better way or suggest more proper conduct, as soon as Mr Bennet became "disappointed" in his marriage he abrogated his responsibilities and retreated to his library, leaving Mrs Bennet to grow worse and worse and Lydia to grow up unrestrained and badly behaved.

No doubt Mrs Bennet would always have been tiresome and silly; but I dispute that she had to be this bad.

This, in fact, is a repeated subject in Austen - most overtly in Emma, with an argument between Emma and Mr Knightly over "what men want": Emma insisting that men prefer pretty idiots, Mr Knightly arguing that men "do not want foolish wives", Emma looking at the world around her and responding, in effect, "Yeah, right." Such marriages recur again and again: with the Palmers in Sense And Sensibility, Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram in Mansfield Park, Charles and Mary Musgrove in Persuasion, in addition to the Bennets. Austen, as I say, condemned this sort of marriage more than any other, and went out of her way in her novels to show the long-term misery of marriages made unthinkingly or based on superficial attractions.

172ronincats
tammikuu 24, 2014, 8:40 pm

Liz, while I had always been aware of the great difference between Mr. Gardiner and his sisters, I guess I had thought it to be in large part to personality differences and not nearly as much as to where the family's resources had been directed to the son. Excellent point!!

173Smiler69
tammikuu 24, 2014, 10:27 pm

>171 lyzard: I guess I should just emphasise that anything I say at this point is entirely to do with the novel, and not intended as any reflection upon your own situation.

But of course! That goes without saying. Besides which, you had no way of knowing about my situation and I've given no particulars, and I know besides you would have no reason and no cause to comment on my situation. This is just an example of how powerful a reading experience can be, and how different that experience is from one reader to another, depending on what experiences one brings to the page, so to speak.

119. I will keep an open mind and concede that perhaps you are right, given how different the times were and the expectations that were placed on men and women.

>172 ronincats: I agree Roni, that was a very good point indeed.

Off to read a bit more, may be back later, more probably tomorrow.

174ronincats
tammikuu 25, 2014, 12:53 am

Just to say I am starting Longbourn tonight.

175CDVicarage
tammikuu 25, 2014, 3:51 am

An excellent point about the Gardiners' upbringing that I had never considered. I have read, an enjoyed, P&P many times and rather smugly thought I knew all I need to know about it so I am quite glad to find I am wrong!

I have Longbourn on my wishlist.

176Morphidae
tammikuu 25, 2014, 3:06 pm

I've been lurking and have thoroughly enjoyed this last part of the conversation. (Not that the rest wasn't great, mind you!)

177Smiler69
tammikuu 25, 2014, 3:41 pm

>176 Morphidae: Morphy, there are many parts to the conversation, do you mean the part about the Gardiners?

178Morphidae
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 25, 2014, 5:36 pm

The parts about that time period's expectations of relationships between husbands and wives.

179Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 25, 2014, 7:25 pm

>178 Morphidae: Yes. It occurs to me that while we take for granted that things have changed a lot in 200 years, there are still plenty of cases where the dynamic between men and women haven't changed all that much. Of course one immediately thinks of countries ruled by religion and extremism, but Western countries are still inhabited with men and women who, whether married or not have the same expectations in terms of what their mutual roles should be. As Liz said to me elsewhere very recently about Jane Austen (and I'm sure she won't mind me quoting her directly on this matter):

Her life and society were almost unimaginably different from ours, but she understood human nature and human behaviour and that hasn't changed at all: 200 years later, we're all still wrestling with the same issues.

True indeed.




I managed to read the two first chapters of volume three late last night, so will post my comments next.

180Nickelini
tammikuu 25, 2014, 7:12 pm

Entertainment break:

from: http://www.themillions.com/2014/01/read-me-please-book-titles-rewritten-to-get-m...

"Read Me! Please!: Book Titles Rewritten to Get More Clicks ~~ As Upworthy-style headlines sweep the internet, aiming to snag as many clicks as possible by pandering to as many whims and obsessions as possible, the dignified mystery of the great book title stands in stark contrast"



Okay, resume what you were doing.

181Smiler69
tammikuu 25, 2014, 7:24 pm

>180 Nickelini: Ha! That's great! :-D

182lyzard
tammikuu 25, 2014, 7:39 pm

I'd hate to think that's all anyone takes away from this book, but... :D

183Smiler69
tammikuu 25, 2014, 7:49 pm

Volume 3, Chapters 1 & 2

Chapter 1

122.
""And of this place," thought she, "I might have been mistress! With these rooms I might now have been familiarly acquainted! Instead of viewing them as a stranger, I might have rejoiced in them as my own, and welcomed to them as visitors my uncle and aunt. But no,"—recollecting herself—"that could never be; my uncle and aunt would have been lost to me; I should not have been allowed to invite them."

I know very well she started thinking differently about Darcy after she read his letter and thought things through a little, but I can't help but think that she probably falls in love in love with him in this chapter because of how incredibly gorgeous his home and grounds are. And yes, of course there's the housekeeper's comments, etc, but I say the estate is what clinches it! (tongue in cheek here)

Is Mr Gardiner encouraging Mrs Reynold's to talk about her master on purpose for Elizabeth's benefit (though he's not yet to know they are already well acquainted with each other?)

123. I'm still astonished that estates such as Darcy's were open to the public as tourist spots. What could possibly be the benefit of that for the owners?

Also, what do you think is the reason for this habit the English during this period have of openly discussing money and the price of everything (here referring to the housekeeper telling them the price of the furniture in the dining room)?

124. "She blushed again and again over the perverseness of the meeting. And his behaviour, so strikingly altered—what could it mean? That he should even speak to her was amazing!—but to speak with such civility, to inquire after her family! Never in her life had she seen his manners so little dignified, never had he spoken with such gentleness as on this unexpected meeting. What a contrast did it offer to his last address in Rosings Park, when he put his letter into her hand! She knew not what to think, or how to account for it."

Nor do I, I'm utterly stumped. Could it be because he's on his own territory? But after all, she did very rudely reject his marriage proposal when he saw her the last time... are we to understand he's been head over heels with her since first noticing her charms and now won't be stopped even by her refusal?

125. "Mrs. Gardiner, who was walking arm-in-arm with Elizabeth, gave her a look expressive of wonder. Elizabeth said nothing, but it gratified her exceedingly; the compliment must be all for herself."

I don't understand this.

126. "He then asked her to walk into the house—but she declared herself not tired, and they stood together on the lawn."

Again and again during this chapter, I think I'm just as amazed with Darcy's behaviour as Elizabeth is!

'She declared herself not' something twice in the novel

Chapter 2

128.
"While these newly-born notions were passing in their heads, the perturbation of Elizabeth's feelings was at every moment increasing. She was quite amazed at her own discomposure; but amongst other causes of disquiet, she dreaded lest the partiality of the brother should have said too much in her favour; and, more than commonly anxious to please, she naturally suspected that every power of pleasing would fail her."

Isn't that always the case though? I think this must be a purely feminine trait.

129. "Elizabeth was pleased to find his memory so exact; and he afterwards took occasion to ask her, when unattended to by any of the rest, whether all her sisters were at Longbourn. There was not much in the question, nor in the preceding remark; but there was a look and a manner which gave them meaning."

He obviously means to ask about Jane here, right? Why can he not ask directly, after all everyone knew they were fond of each other.

130 ""I remember, when we first knew her in Hertfordshire, how amazed we all were to find that she was a reputed beauty; and I particularly recollect your saying one night, after they had been dining at Netherfield, 'She a beauty!—I should as soon call her mother a wit.' But afterwards she seemed to improve on you, and I believe you thought her rather pretty at one time."
"Yes," replied Darcy, who could contain himself no longer, "but that was only when I first saw her, for it is many months since I have considered her as one of the handsomest women of my acquaintance."


This is one of many instances with JA when I can't make out whether she's saying one thing or it's contrary. I'm assuming Darcy is saying Elizabeth IS the handsomest woman in his acquaintance?

184lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 25, 2014, 9:05 pm

Ooh, my goodness! You ask so many significant questions here and raise so many vital points! It's terribly important that we are absolutely clear about what's going on here, so I'll try to answer in detail - there will probably be a lot of cross-referencing, because all these issues are interconnected.

Chapter 1

122. It's depressing to contemplate how many people come away from Pride and Prejudice convinced that Elizabeth does change her mind for mercenary reasons! (It doesn't help that she makes a joke on the subject, I guess!)

There's something much more subtle and psychologically complex going on here. After all, Elizabeth already knew that Darcy owned a spectacular estate and has ten thousand pounds a year, so if that's what she was interested in, she would have said 'yes' in the first place. What's happening here is that Elizabeth is seeing Pemberley as a manifestation of its owner's character; as evidence of an unseen and unsuspected version of Darcy. It is therefore quite literally true that (as she later says jokingly) her interest in Darcy dates from her first seeing Pemberley, not for mercenary reasons, but because this is her first good look behind his façade.

No, Mrs Gardiner is trying to get a proper impression of Darcy: she is, as she says, intrigued and confused by the two extremely different accounts of his character she has heard, the negative one from Elizabeth and the positive one from the housekeeper - both of them equally prejudiced", of course. :)

123. Noblesse oblige. It wasn't for the benefit of the owners, it was one of their responsibilities (although by the 20th century, with taxes biting, owners of such estates generated necessary income by inviting guests and/or renting their homes to film-makers).

The owners of the great estates were considered to be holding England's history and glory and wealth "in trust" for the nation. This is another major reason why the entail was commonly put in place, to ensure that each generation met its responsibilities in this respect. At this time a great many paintings and heirlooms and objets d'art and libraries dating back centuries were privately owned but considered as part of the nation's collective heritage. So private estates such as Pemberley were opened to the public on specific days, as if it were museums.

At this period people were very frank about money matters. This changed over the course of the 19th century, and money became something that was "not nice" to talk about. (Probably because the rising of the middle-classes and the professional trades meant that "nice people" weren't the only ones with money any more.)

124. Okay. There's two different but equally important things going on here.

Yes, in the first place, the fact that Darcy is on his own ground is part of it. As we've said, Darcy is an introvert. He's not comfortable among strangers, he's not comfortable at public gatherings, and as a consequence his behaviour is often awkward. But here at Pemberley, he's at home, he's on his own turf, he's among his own people; he is comfortable. And as a consequence, he is literally a different person.

BUT---BUT---BUT---BUT--- That's not all.

After the proposal scene, and the letter, we stay with Elizabeth while she goes over and over that scene and digests the letter, weighs everything that Darcy has said to her, and is forced to come to terms with her own mistakes and prejudices. We follow her as she examines her conduct, admits her mistakes, and adjusts her thoughts and feelings accordingly. We see that in great detail and understand her journey.

What we DON'T see is Darcy going through exactly the same process. This comes back to what I said earlier about the novel not letting us inside his head; we misunderstand him because Elizabeth misunderstands him.

However, it is reasonable to infer that, just as Elizabeth went over and over his letter, he went over and over what she said to him while rejecting his proposal - and that he, too, was forced to admit that there was some justice in what she said and that he has been at fault.

However, we don't know any of this at the time. We know why Elizabeth's feelings have changed; with Darcy, all we see is that he has changed. And like Elizabeth, for the time being we can only guess at the reasons for it.

125. Darcy is going above and beyond what was expected of the owner of an estate in his interaction with public visitors to the estate. By showing such extra politeness and attention to the Gardiners, he intends an indirect compliment to Elizabeth; he is taking pains with them because of their relationship to her. (This, too, in the wake of what he said about her relatives during his proposal.) Mrs Gardiner is puzzled because as far as she knows, Darcy and Elizabeth are barely acquainted; Elizabeth realises that he can only be doing these things to please her.

126. It's because Austen likes indirectly reported conversation. In actually the conversation would have gone something like:

"Are you tired?" asked Darcy. "May I escort into the house?"
"Thank you, no, I'm not in the least tired," replied Elizabeth.

Chapter 2

128. I'm inclined to agree. :)

129. Partly because politeness dictates he inquire after all of her family, partly because singling Jane out when they are not engaged would be improper.

130. "I didn't think much of her looks when we first met, but almost immediately afterwards I realised she was in fact extremely attractive. I've thought so for ages."

I must say, I prefer Austen's way of putting it! :D

185Helenliz
tammikuu 26, 2014, 7:32 am

I'm just about to start this now, so will read the various discussions of the different chapters, as I get to them (rather than read them now and then forget about it).
I've stopped at the first line and thought about it. "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of good fortune, must be in want of a wife".
Is that supposed to be taken as a statement of fact, or is that supposed to be read as a dig at what the marriage minded mamas want to think? Have I been reading this straight and I should be reading it as satire?

186lyzard
tammikuu 26, 2014, 3:01 pm

Hi, Helen - thanks for joining us!

Not a satire, exactly, but an ironic and often quite critical commentary upon society at the time, particularly with regard to the expectations around marriage.

And yes, that line should effectively be read backwards: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, will soon be the target of everyone with a marriageable daughter."

187Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 26, 2014, 3:45 pm

Thank you so much for your explanation of why people were allowed to visit the grand estates. Privately held public works of art. An interesting idea. But I was surprised that people were allowed even in the bedrooms. That seems like quite an invasion of their personal space. Also, there seems to be only one little housekeeper to make sure the visitors don't carry off whatever strikes their fancy. That seems rather unsafe to me.

188lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 26, 2014, 3:57 pm

The rooms occupied by members of the family would have been off-limits, but others kept in readiness for guests would have been accessible.

Note, too, that the guests are allowed to tour when the family isn't home. Specific days were announced when guests could have access and at other times it wasn't possible. (Darcy does show up, but he's not expected by his servants.)

Most display items would have been engraved or otherwise marked with a family monogram and would therefore have been recognisable and not saleable; there would not have been access to moveable objects such as the family jewellery or silverware. In addition, there were unspoken rules about who were "the right sort of people" for these sorts of tours. The wrong sort would have been politely (or not so politely) turned away.

189Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 26, 2014, 6:09 pm

Sounds like a premise for a good Cary Grant art thievery movie.

190lyzard
tammikuu 26, 2014, 6:34 pm

Do you know How To Steal A Million, with Audrey Hepburn and Peter O'Toole? :)

191cbl_tn
tammikuu 26, 2014, 6:51 pm

>190 lyzard: I had exactly the same thought! That's one of my favorite movies. Now that you've mentioned it, I have an urge to pull it out and watch it again.

192Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 26, 2014, 9:13 pm

Looks like there'll be a run at the library.

193Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 26, 2014, 10:32 pm

That's the first time I've seen the expression noblesse oblige to express what it actually stands for and not as some sort of ironic statement. I'm glad I asked that question about visiting estates because I've learned a lot in the process. Sometimes (not in this case), I ask questions even when I think I know the answer in case I might learn something I didn't know I didn't know.

194Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 26, 2014, 11:56 pm

So on my last round, I'd actually read chapters 1 through 3 but had no questions on the third. Today I only read Chapter 4, but somehow ended up annotating practically every other sentence. For this reason it took me a long time to get through this chapter, but I assure you my heart was beating very fast throughout! For one thing, and I'm not sure how this is possible, but I had completely forgotten that the officer Lydia had run away with was Wickham. Which goes to show you just how troubled I was by remembrances-of-things-past-I-wish-would-stay-buried-already when I read it the first time! Sigh.

Volume 3, Chapter 3 : Lydia Elopes with Wickham

131.
I'm guessing an express letter was sent on an coach especially for the purpose? Or... ?

Would such a thing have been tremendously expensive?

Very common?

132. Do you think JA chose the name Wickham because of the alliteration with 'wicked'? (I'm not sure I've phrased that properly... never used 'alliteration' in a sentence before!)

133. "Our poor mother is sadly grieved. My father bears it better."

Any reason for the switch from 'our' to 'my'?

At that point (this is the first letter), I'm wondering if on the contrary Mrs Bennet wouldn't have been overjoyed with the prospect of one of her daughters marrying! and, "father bears it better" is no doubt an understatement!

134. "How thankful am I that we never let them know what has been said against him; we must forget it ourselves.

Why forget it? Because if they are to be married the family must not think ill of him?

135. Why does Colonel Foster travel to see the Bennets personally? Because he feels responsible? Is he?

136. Who is Denny?

137. "After making every possible inquiry on that side London, Colonel F. came on into Hertfordshire, anxiously renewing them at all the turnpikes"

What does this mean?

138. Just a reflection: isn't it amazing how swiftly the written correspondence moves the narrative along in this novel?

139. "What he means to do I am sure I know not; but his excessive distress will not allow him to pursue any measure in the best and safest way"

I would believe a normal father would be 'excessively distressed' to be sure, but is Mr Bennet capable of that much concern?

140. I notice that both parents leave it to Jane to get in touch with her sister and appraise her of the circumstances, arrange to have her uncle return, etc.

141. "Calling back the servant, therefore, she commissioned him, though in so breathless an accent as made her almost unintelligible, to fetch his master and mistress home instantly"

"Let me call your maid. Is there nothing you could take to give you present relief?"


The only other time (so far) there's been mention of the help. But in this case, they're at an inn, so why HIS master and HER maid?

142. "She has no money, no connections, nothing that can tempt him to—she is lost for ever."

Nothing that can tempt him to... marry her?

143. "Darcy made no answer. He seemed scarcely to hear her, and was walking up and down the room in earnest meditation, his brow contracted, his air gloomy. Elizabeth soon observed, and instantly understood it"

She understood her own interpretation of his reaction basically, correct?

144. "She could neither wonder nor condemn, but the belief of his self-conquest brought nothing consolatory to her bosom"

i.e. self-control?

145. "and covering her face with her handkerchief, Elizabeth was soon lost to everything else"

i.e. was crying?

146. "Would to Heaven that anything could be either said or done on my part that might offer consolation to such distress! But I will not torment you with vain wishes, which may seem purposely to ask for your thanks. This unfortunate affair will, I fear, prevent my sister's having the pleasure of seeing you at Pemberley to-day."

He has, in fact said something which probably should and could give her consolation if she had ears to hear it at that moment, or he wouldn't have phrased it quite like that, or even brought it up at all?

147. "He readily assured her of his secrecy; again expressed his sorrow for her distress, wished it a happier conclusion than there was at present reason to hope, and leaving his compliments for her relations, with only one serious, parting look, went away."

By relations we are to understand the Gardiners I assume? Otherwise he wouldn't bring up her 'relations' in general given the circumstances, would he?

148. "If gratitude and esteem are good foundations of affection, Elizabeth's change of sentiment will be neither improbable nor faulty. But if otherwise—if regard springing from such sources is unreasonable or unnatural, in comparison of what is so often described as arising on a first interview with its object, and even before two words have been exchanged, nothing can be said in her defence, except that she had given somewhat of a trial to the latter method in her partiality for Wickham, and that its ill success might, perhaps, authorise her to seek the other less interesting mode of attachment."

Possibly the best quote of the novel? No wonder she ends up marrying him!

149. "Be that as it may, she saw him go with regret; and in this early example of what Lydia's infamy must produce, found additional anguish as she reflected on that wretched business."

Why 'early example'?

She's assuming she's lost him because of Lydia bringing shame on the family, correct?

The expression 'Lydia's infamy' appears twice in the novel.

150. "While the contents of the first letter remained in her mind, she was all surprise—all astonishment that Wickham should marry a girl whom it was impossible he could marry for money; and how Lydia could ever have attached him had appeared incomprehensible."

Not for long...

151. "But now it was all too natural.".

I can't help but think the word 'natural' must be very loaded here, considering she wrote the novel in the late 18th c. I might be on a tangent here, but from what I remember learning about Jean-Jacques Rousseau in high school, and knowing there were at least three philosophers who wrote about the theory of the natural man in that century—not to say she necessarily read those works—but the notion would have been in the zeitgeist I'd imagine.

152. "For such an attachment as this she might have sufficient charms; and though she did not suppose Lydia to be deliberately engaging in an elopement without the intention of marriage, she had no difficulty in believing that neither her virtue nor her understanding would preserve her from falling an easy prey."

I though eloping meant 'running away to marry', doesn't it? Or is it synonymous with 'running away with a man' in this case?

We might read 'her utter lack of virtue' and 'her completely deficient understanding', n'est-ce pas?

153. "but she was convinced that Lydia wanted only encouragement to attach herself to anybody. Sometimes one officer, sometimes another, had been her favourite, as their attentions raised them in her opinion. Her affections had continually been fluctuating but never without an object. The mischief of neglect and mistaken indulgence towards such a girl—oh! how acutely did she now feel it!"

This made me cry. How I wish my mother had remembered reading her P&P when she was raising me, and how I wish she'd made me read it when I was still a young innocent!

154. "She was wild to be at home—to hear, to see, to be upon the spot to share with Jane in the cares that must now fall wholly upon her, in a family so deranged, a father absent, a mother incapable of exertion, and requiring constant attendance."

This goes back to the beginning of our discussion about the Bennets. And sadly describes so many families!

155. "Not Lydia only, but all were concerned in it"

Because of the general censure that must fall on the family, correct?

156. ""Yes; and I told him we should not be able to keep our engagement. That is all settled."

So she thinks! Mind you, they're not engages, yet. :-)




Whew! That took me over an hour to put together, can you believe it?

195lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 1:54 am

>>#193

One lesson of these tutoring sessions is that a question is always better asked, because someone will always want to know. :)

>>#194

131. Ordinary mail travelled by coach at this point in the 19th century (rail later on), and then was delivered by carriage or horse. An express was rather like the pony express in the US (only not over such great distances, or generally through such dangers), with a rider hired to carry a message from point to point in the quickest possible time. It would have been a service used only in emergencies and comparatively expensive (charged according to distance).

132. Possibly so, although she's not usually given to "meaningful" names the way are Dickens and Trollope are, for instance.

133. "Our father" was God, and therefore "my father" was the expression used even between siblings.

Even Mrs Bennet couldn't be happy over this sort of elopement! (But stick around...)

Yes, no doubt!

134. Yes, pretty much; and at this point knowing all that would just make things worse for their parents.

135. Lydia is his guest (to whom he more or less stands in loco parentis, lucky man!) and Wickham is an officer under his command, so it could be considered that he bears a measure of responsibility, yes. Insufficient care in the first place, insufficient discipline in the second. :)

136. Denny is a friend of Wickham and a fellow-officer in the regiment; he was one of those stationed in Meryton when the Bennets first met Wickham.

137. Renewed his inquiries. Certain major roads were turnpikes, or toll-ways, where carriages had to stop and pay a toll to get through a gate. The Colonel is asking every time he stops if anyone fitting Wickham and Lydia's description has passed by.

138. Austen was a product of the 18th century, when the epistolary novel ruled supreme; Sense And Sensibility was originally written in an epistolary style, then rewritten as narrative prose. Austen understood very well how to use letters in her novels for a variety of purposes, including compressing the action, as here. Only Anthony Trollope compares with her for that particular skill.

139. Just meaning that he's too upset to think clearly, and needs good advice.

I imagine that his own culpability in this situation is starting to sink in...

140. Correspondence was a duty often assigned to one female in a family, though in this case Mr Bennet isn't there and Mrs Bennet is too upset.

141. Even though they are staying at an inn, they would still have several of their own servants with them. The servant Elizabeth calls back is a manservant employed by the Gardiners: she sends him after "your master and mistress", who are out walking together. The servant that Darcy wants to call is Elizabeth's own maidservant (or the one assigned by her aunt, or by the innkeepers), to look after her: "your maid".

142. Yes.

143. Yes; she's still putting her own interpretation upon his behaviour - in this case through the prism of her own mortification.

144. Self-conquest, as in getting over his feelings for her. After what he said about her family during his proposal, before this happened, she believes this will be the thing that kills his love for her.

145. Lost to everything but Lydia's situation, and no longer thinking about how it might affect herself.

146. That's a slightly ambiguous phrase. He might be obliquely assuring her that he's still happy for her to be friends with his sister in spite of this, OR it might be his first step in putting a barrier between Georgiana and Elizabeth's association with Lydia's scandal. In its simplest terms, however, Elizabeth does have an engagement with Georgiana which she will have to break, and such things were taken very seriously; hence Elizabeth stopping a moment to send her regrets.

147. Also serious were the social rituals of greetings, farewells, and compliments, which likewise Darcy does not neglect; it is a mark of his respect for the Gardiners.

148. Austen wasn't a big fan of love at first sight. :)

149. He's the first person to hear about it, and he's taken off - so, "early example"; she can look forward to being cold-shouldered by all sorts of people in the future.

Yes, as per 144., if he was put off by her family before, how must he feel about them now?

150. & 151. That's a very interesting observation and certainly not out of the question.

152. "Elopement" is the act of running away; the word was most commonly used in the context of an intent to marry, but it did not necessarily mean that.

In any case, Elizabeth is expressing her belief that Lydia agreed to elope believing that they were to have been married - but also her belief that when Wickham refused to marry her, she would have become his mistress rather than leave him.

Yes, we can.

153. I'm sorry! :(

154. Yes, that's right.

155. Yes. This also goes back to what we were saying about how easily girls could come to be considered unmarriageable. Because one of the Bennet girls has gone wrong, there would be an assumption that all of them were likely to - and even if you didn't believe that, why would you connect yourself to a family with a scandal in it?

156. Social engagement, as per 146. :)

**********************************************************

Whew! indeed. And it took me an hour to answer!

196southernbooklady
tammikuu 27, 2014, 9:03 am

>195 lyzard: This also goes back to what we were saying about how easily girls could come to be considered unmarriageable. Because one of the Bennet girls has gone wrong, there would be an assumption that all of them were likely to

I've been lurking in this conversation with pleasure -- lyzard I think you should have been tapped to do the "annotated" versions of the Austen books that Penguin has been producing with David Shapard. You'd do a much better job!

I've always wondered how Jane and Elizabeth turned out so well, given the hopelessness of all the other girls and the capriciousness of their parents. I don't think the story speculates on it, but one wonders what role models they were using?

197casvelyn
tammikuu 27, 2014, 9:35 am

When I worked at the retirement home, we used "elopement" to refer to dementia patients who wandered outside and got lost (fortunately that never happened while I worked there, but we still had to have training on it). I always pictured 90-year-olds running off to Vegas to get married by an Elvis impersonator.

198lyzard
tammikuu 27, 2014, 3:43 pm

>>#196

Thank you, Nicki - and thank you for joining us!

I think Jane and Elizabeth benefited from being the eldest. Probably things were better between their parents in the early days, there was money, there were probably governesses. Mr Bennet may also have been meeting his responsibilities then - he may have taught the girls himself or encouraged them to use his library (girls who got better educations in the 19th century were often self-educated).

Then over time, things got more difficult - daughters kept coming, money got tight, Mr and Mrs Bennet became estranged, Mr Bennet retreated... He kept up his relationship with his two eldest daughters, though, and they gained from that. Meanwhile Mrs Bennet formed her own "clique" with Kitty and Lydia in particular, and their education was neglected. Poor Mary seems to have been on the outer all along (though presumably she too had access to the library), and perhaps took her own path out of resentment or as a kind of defence mechanism.

>>#197

Heh! Yes, it's the correct use of the word, but it does imply all sorts of strange things! :)

199southernbooklady
tammikuu 27, 2014, 4:18 pm

>198 lyzard: I think Jane and Elizabeth benefited from being the eldest. Probably things were better between their parents in the early days, there was money, there were probably governesses.

Now that's a good thought. There is a sense of surrendering to his fate on the father's part, isn't there?

The elopement of Wickham and Lydia is one of the few things in an Austen novel that makes me shift uncomfortably. I never can forget that Lydia is "not yet fifteen" when they meet.

200Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 27, 2014, 4:19 pm

I think think this whole interlude of Lydia's elopement shows that Elizabeth is the only daughter who has managed to grow out of this deranged family into a fully competent human being. Jane would be as incapable as Lydia of leading an independant adult life. Certainly she has more self control than Lydia but just as little common sense. In spite of all evidence she insists on believing that all people are good and any bad done by them is a misunderstanding. Fortunately she's beautiful and gracious enough to attract a rich, kind and devoted man who can protect her from being trampled by the real world. I just want to shake her and wake her up sometimes, but aside from the time Elizabeth explains the Darcy - Wickham situation to her and demands that she must see that only one can be in the right, Elizabeth seems not to react against her gentle sister's delusions strongly at all.

201southernbooklady
tammikuu 27, 2014, 4:27 pm

>200 Citizenjoyce: Jane would be as incapable as Lydia of leading an independent adult life.

But don't you think that was a deliberate choice on Austen's part? Jane--the "perfect" gentleman's daughter: beautiful, accomplished, sweet, docile -- none of these things guarantee her future. It takes only a single intervention from D'Arcy to derail Bingley's plans, and it take a spirited accusation from Elizabeth (doesn't she accuse him of behaving in an "ungentlemanly manner" towards her sister's hopes and Wickham's career?) to make D'Arcy reconsider his objections and justify his actions.

202Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 4:34 pm

Yes, I agree. But aside from the example of the ease of destroying a spotless reputation, I wonder if Austin is saying anything about the deficiencies of the "perfect" woman.
ETA Who would be regarded as the perfect women by most (religious and/or conservative) people even today.

203lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 5:16 pm

I would suggest as far as human relationships ever go, a lot of it was - and *is* - luck. :)

Neither Jane's sweetness and generosity and docility, nor Lizzy's intelligence and strength and humour, guarantee them anything. In fact for most of the novel it looks like they'll get a lot less out of life than their pretty, dim-witted mother.

There wasn't really any such thing at the time as "an independent adult life" for a woman, so nothing prepared them for it.

Elizabeth spends quite a lot of time early on trying to argue Jane out of her tendency to see good in everyone, even when its mutually exclusive, but I think after her confrontation with Darcy and her realisation of how wrong many of her own judgements have been, that she feels she doesn't really have any right to criticise Jane's approach any more, however impractical it might be.

To be fair to Darcy - though he had no right to interfere - he doesn't say anything bad about Jane, nor in that context does he bring her family into it; in fact he specifically excludes Jane from his criticisms of the Bennet family. He tells Bingley that he thinks he is mistaken in believing that Jane loves him back, and Bingley, a modest young man, accepts that judgement and concludes that he has been over-optimistic.

The "un-gentlemanlike" behaviour that Lizzy accuses Darcy of is his insulting way of proposing, dwelling on the "lowness" of her connections and how much of a sacrifice he's making. Her accusation of unwarranted interference in Jane's affairs is a separate point in her refusal.

Lydia is fifteen - the same age as Georgiana was - when she and Wickham meet. These days we see a worrying predilection for underage girls in Wickham, but at the time it wasn't so unusual for girls to marry very young (though it rarely turned out particularly well). No doubt, though, Wickham prefers a more vulnerable "prey".

204Nickelini
tammikuu 27, 2014, 6:01 pm

I think think this whole interlude of Lydia's elopement shows that Elizabeth is the only daughter who has managed to grow out of this deranged family into a fully competent human being. Jane would be as incapable as Lydia of leading an independant adult life. Certainly she has more self control than Lydia but just as little common sense. In spite of all evidence she insists on believing that all people are good and any bad done by them is a misunderstanding. Fortunately she's beautiful and gracious enough to attract a rich, kind and devoted man who can protect her from being trampled by the real world. I just want to shake her and wake her up sometimes, but aside from the time Elizabeth explains the Darcy - Wickham situation to her and demands that she must see that only one can be in the right, Elizabeth seems not to react against her gentle sister's delusions strongly at all.

Oh, thank you! I know Jane is a much loved character, but I don't know why. She drives me crazy. Yes, she is nice, and she is Elizabeth's friend--unlike the other sisters who are just sisters. But my replies to her would be very different than Elizabeth's are!

There wasn't really any such thing at the time as "an independent adult life" for a woman, so nothing prepared them for it.

Well, unless they become widows. And then it depends.

205Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 27, 2014, 6:57 pm

There wasn't really any such thing at the time as "an independent adult life" for a woman, so nothing prepared them for it.

And there you are, maybe that's my Janeness (i.e. blind optimism) coming out. I want to believe that under most circumstances it is possible for a person to be a wholly responsible person. Which is why I like Longbourn so much. Lady Catherine deBourgh has the opportunity for a mostly self directed life because she's lucky enough to be a widow (thank you my literary soul sister, OtherJoyce). And here's the problem I have with Austin, the barely glancing inclusion of servants. The servants are people. It would be very difficult to go from being the one to order up shoe roses to being the one who has to run out and get them, but that is a possible life. Not a pleasant one, granted, but a life nevertheless. Before your comments about young women dying in genteel poverty, I would have said that refusing a controlling marriage was a reasonable option. Now, I don't know. But I have to think that there is an alternative, and was even then, to being a Stepford or Bennet wife.

206Nickelini
tammikuu 27, 2014, 7:14 pm

But I have to think that there is an alternative, and was even then, to being a Stepford or Bennet wife.

Ha ha. I hadn't thought of it that way, but . . . yes.

207Nickelini
tammikuu 27, 2014, 7:17 pm

#196 - to do the "annotated" versions of the Austen books that Penguin has been producing with David Shapard. You'd do a much better job!

Southernbooklady - what didn't you like about the Shapard annotations? I've only read the P&P, but I had a great time with it--it was like reading along with a friend. I did find the word definitions a bit tedious, but the editorial reason for them is explained and I see their logic. And they were easy to skim over (since they were right there--no flipping to notes at the end of the book, thank goodness). Have you seen the Patricia Meyers Spacks annotation? I liked that one a lot too.

208Nickelini
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 7:23 pm

we shouldn't overlook the fact that, clearly, all of the Gardiner family's money and attention were poured into the son, while the daughters were completely neglected. Mr Gardiner is "gentlemanly", a well-bred, educated man; his sisters are ignorant and under-bred. This is a typical example of the differing attitudes towards boys and girls and the way resources were apportioned.
(from 118 in Lyzard's answers, way above)

I hadn't thought of that before, but it makes so much sense.

209southernbooklady
tammikuu 27, 2014, 8:10 pm

>207 Nickelini: Southernbooklady - what didn't you like about the Shapard annotations?

I read the Persuasion edition--Persuasion being my favorite Austen novel and Anne being my absolute favorite character. I actually reviewed it a couple years ago:

On the limited charms of stating the obvious

210Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 8:41 pm

Wow! I see things have been hopping here today, what fun!

133. "Our father" was God, and therefore "my father" was the expression used even between siblings.

I wouldn't have figured this out by myself, since, as I mentioned when we were reading the first two Barsetshire books (I haven't pursued them since, though would like to), anything to do with religion goes right over my head, which comes from having been raised without any by parents who were more or less against it. Interesting point. I'll take notice of it in other novels from now on.

136. This is an example of how bad my memory is. I can barely remember what's happened in a novel as I move from one chapter to the next, let alone keep extremely minor characters straight!

138. Interesting about Sense and Sensibility having been originally written in epistolary form. Is this common knowledge? Do you know if any trace of the original manuscript survived? Or why she chose to rewrite it? I must say S&S was the first JA novel I read and other than the beginning which I found very funny for some reason (can't remember it all all now), I found it mostly insipid. Another tutorial eventually?

As you know, I haven't read much literature pre-dating the 19th century, so wasn't really aware that novels in the 18th century were mostly written in epistolary form (actually, was in in fact the majority of novels which were written in that style?), though I did read Les Liaisons Dangereuses last year (now one of my all-time favourites!), so am guessing this was true of that century's French novels as well.

145. I continue to think she was probably crying, otherwise, why mention she covered her face with a handkerchief?

146. Elizabeth does have an engagement with Georgiana which she will have to break, and such things were taken very seriously

I know we've touched on this in previous tutorials, but why so important again? Because it was their main form of social intercourse?

148. Austen wasn't a big fan of love at first sight.

Clearly not, and I must say now with the benefit of years of (mostly dreadful) romantic experiences behind me I must say I fully agree with her views on the matter. Again, I wish I'd read her when I was still forming my early impressions on such matters. Might have helped put some sense in my unformed brain. I feel very glad I no longer feel any inclination to share my life with anyone, much less troublesome!

I notice upon rereading that passage for the umpteenth time that she never actually mentions the word 'love' here at all!

151. Thank you. :-)




>197 casvelyn: I scanned your message when I was in a rush this morning, so this is what I read:

I always pictured 90-year-olds running off to Vegas to get married with an Elvis impersonator. :-D

211lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 27, 2014, 10:07 pm

>>#205

I think we shouldn't go too far in addressing what Austen did not write about. No, she doesn't much acknowledge the servants. She doesn't write about the Napoleonic Wars, either, and has received a lot of criticism over the years for that omission. But the bottom line is, she wrote about what she wrote about; she reflected the reality of her times.

I think it's hard for us in these revisionist days to really grasp how rigid the class barriers were at that time. There was no social mobility. If you were born in the servant class, almost invariably you became a servant. If you were born middle-class, you stayed middle-class. A poor middle-class person didn't just "become a servant" to earn some money. There were few professions of any kind even for men at the beginning of the 19th century; that changed over the following decades, but it wasn't until near the turn of the century that women working and earning became a genuinely viable option.

A major part of being a good servant was being "invisible". The barriers were absolute, and there was rarely any "fraternising" between employers and servants, except in cases where, for instance, a girl who started out as a nursery-maid, looking after the children, might become a personal maid or a housekeeper; that early connection might be maintained. But on the whole the only contact between the two was in the course of the servants'; duties.

And the other thing to keep in mind is that situation really didn't alter significantly for about another hundred years - and didn't thoroughly break down for another fifty after that, after WWII. If you read middle-class English novels right through the between-wars period, you find exactly the same presentation of the servants as you find in Austen.

So, yeah; I'm not saying she doesn't do what you say; I'm simply saying it isn't reasonable to single her out for it when every English novelist over the course of about 250 years did exactly the same thing. (As did American novelists for quite some time, too; can't tell you about the Canadians, sorry!)

But I have to think that there is an alternative, and was even then, to being a Stepford or Bennet wife.

Yes, there was - and that is exactly what Austen's novels are about, how to make a good and right marriage. Don't propose to the first pretty face that crosses your path; don't snatch at the first proposal you receive regardless; don't make money your first priority; know the person you're going to be spending your life with... It's not marriage she's against, it's marriage undertaken in a hasty, a superficial, or a mercenary way.

212southernbooklady
tammikuu 27, 2014, 8:52 pm

>211 lyzard: I think it's hard for us in these revisionist days to really grasp how rigid the class barriers were at that time.

And how circumscribed women's roles were within those classes.

213casvelyn
tammikuu 27, 2014, 9:45 pm

>210 Smiler69: What happens in Vegas... :)

214lyzard
tammikuu 27, 2014, 10:26 pm

>>#210

138. I think it's fairly commonly believed amongst Austen scholars that there was an early version of Sense And Sensibility written in epistolary form about 1795 and called Elinor And Marianne, though I'm not sure of the evidence.

Glad to tackle S&S with you, whenever you like. :)

In the late 17th century there was a fascination with reading published letters, to the extent that some publishers hired writers to fake sets of correspondence for public consumption. The epistolary novel grew out of that: it was basically invented by **cough, cough** Aphra Behn, in the first volume of **cough, cough** Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And his Sister, in which she imagines the correspondence of two people involved in a real-life scandal. Other people later copied her, but it was Samuel Richardson in Clarissa who turned it into an art-form. After that, during the second half of the 18th century, there were A LOT of epistolary novels written, though I don't know it would be correct to say the majority of novels were so. Epistolary novels were particularly popular amongst writers of the deist / sentimental school, because the form allowed the writers to talk at length about life, the universe and everything, without worrying too much about the plot.

But the epistolary novel fell out of favour during the early years of the 19th century (probably because of too many deist / sentimental authors not worrying enough about the plot), and by the time Austen published S&S narrative prose was the favoured form.

145. Oh, yes she was crying (and hiding her face from Darcy); but the bit you highlighted - Elizabeth was soon lost to everything else - means that she was only thinking about Lydia.

146. It's hard to explain except to say that throughout the 19th century the rituals of social interaction were taken very seriously - the verbal greetings and partings, bowing and curtseying, shaking hands, sending compliments - these things were only omitted under extreme duress (recall Darcy saying to Elizabeth, "Good God! What is the matter?" as his opening remark, with more feeling than politeness; then recollecting himself...) Social engagements were likewise taken seriously and were expected to be kept except for very grave reasons; not to keep one for casual reasons was the height of bad manners and unacceptable behaviour.

148. She rarely does use the word "love"; she's more likely to use a more considered, less emotional word like "esteem". Elizabeth later says she loves Darcy, but not *to* Darcy! :)

215Citizenjoyce
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 28, 2014, 12:13 am

to the extent that some publishers hired writers to fake sets of correspondence for public consumption. A plot point of the movie Her, the main (human) character is a professional letter writer.

an alternative to being a Stepford wife Yes, there was - and that is exactly what Austen's novels are about, how to make a good and right marriage. Don't propose to the first pretty face that crosses your path; don't snatch at the first proposal you receive regardless; don't make money your first priority; know the person you're going to be spending your life with... It's not marriage she's against, it's marriage undertaken in a hasty, a superficial, or a mercenary way.
Right, Elizabeth will have just such a good marriage, but Jane is pretty much a Stepford character, so she couldn't really have any but a Stepford marriage though In Chapter 13, Mr. Bennet says to Jane about her marriage to Mr. Bingley You are each of you so complying, that nothing will ever be resolved on; so easy, that every servant will cheat you; and so generous, that you will always exceed your income. So I guess not exactly Stepford, just a marriage of very easily lead equals.alert>

216Deern
tammikuu 28, 2014, 5:50 am

I've been off LT for a week and missed so much here on this thread. Sorry if I am late with comments, but I'd like to add a couple of things and ask two questions:

1. Language
I've been wondering why Austen's novels for me have always been comparatively easy reads when many native speakers were complaining about the difficulties they had with her writing. Now I remembered that in the 1700s probably English was still much closer to German than it is today, although the "thee" and "though" have disappeared sometime between Shakespeare's times and Austen's. Maybe this explains why the construction of her sentences feels quite natural to me.

2. Pemberley
I remember that when I read P&P the first time (not knowing the story at all), I interpreted Lizzie's "I might have been mistress" differently. More like she suddenly understood that Darcy's proposal didn't just mean he loved her, but also that he trusted her - despite her background - with the "ruling" of this enormous household. Whenever I read this I think I'd probably shrink away from such a responsibility.

How did education prepare girls to this? All the painting and piano playing can't have been of much use for such duties.

3. Professions
Thinking about those 3 options younger sons usually had - military, clergy, law - I always asked myself how one came to chose the clergy option. Austen seems not to have been very religious, and although I read the Barsetshire Chronicles I can't say I detected much religious fervour in all those characters either, with the exception of that poor one whose name I already forgot again.
Was belief something so self-evident that it didn't need to be mentioned? Did clergymen have to feel a calling as we'd expect today?
I also wonder about the Royal Family today. Can I assume that they are really faithful believers, or is being the worldly head of the church just part of the job for a future King/Queen?

217Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 28, 2014, 11:22 am

>214 lyzard:

138. Very interesting information about epistolary novels Liz, thank you. I've read very few so far, less than a handful; the aforementioned Liaisons Dangereuses; 84, Charing Cross Road and The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society all three of which I adored. For some reason, when I was much younger the idea of reading other people's letters seemed like a very boring proposition to me, but I see things differently now. On that note, I very much look forward to Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And his Sister. Has Heather decided when she wants to start on it yet? Is Clarissa a novel I would enjoy do you think?

I had never come across the term 'deist' before. Interesting concept.

>216 Deern:

Nathalie, you raise some very interesting issues. On Austen's sentence construction for example. I think this was one of the things I found most bewildering about her novels when I read the first two (P&P and S&S) and it made me very upset to find I could barely make out half of what she said. At the time it made me feel that the 'Jane Austen Club' was in on some sort of secret and I was obviously not clever enough to fit in. Fascinating to think a native German speaker would find it easier to read her, though I suppose it makes sense considering your reasoning.

Pemberley: I read that "I might have been mistress" in a similar way, and did think this would be a daunting task for one not brought up with a comparable fortune and estate. Good question about how women's education might have prepared them for something like this.

Clergy: as you know I'm no specialist on the matter, though from what I do know (a good portion of said knowledge coming from Liz), I believe a religious 'calling' had very little to do with religious fervour and was purely a matter of a practical choice. When you ask "Was belief something so self-evident that it didn't need to be mentioned", this is something I've often asked myself when reading 19th c literature, as religious beliefs are almost never brought up; after several readings, I still continue to have difficulty with the ending of Jane Eyre when she brings up Jesus because it never seemed to me like Jane believed in anything really, but someone did point out to me that she was religious and this was something that was simply taken for granted. I personally think that people believed or didn't as they liked, if they had a mind of their own to consider such things, but if they didn't, they kept that very much to themselves and made a show of going with the prevalent moral attitudes or risk being outcast as heathens.

218southernbooklady
tammikuu 28, 2014, 11:28 am

>217 Smiler69: a religious 'calling' had very little to do with religious fervour and was purely a matter of a practical choice.

You can't have extreme opinions in the Church of England

219Smiler69
tammikuu 28, 2014, 11:37 am

>218 southernbooklady: "Cake or Death?"

That was hilarious Nicky, thanks for sharing. :-D

220Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 28, 2014, 2:22 pm

Cake please.

221Morphidae
tammikuu 28, 2014, 4:25 pm

it was basically invented by **cough, cough** Aphra Behn, in the first volume of **cough, cough**

I don't understand the cough cough.

***

I'd love a tutored thread for Sense and Sensibility. That's the next one I plan to read.

222Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 28, 2014, 6:19 pm

>221 Morphidae: Morphy, I think Liz is just being silly because she and I have spoken about Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And his Sister repeatedly, as I got it last year not knowing the first thing about it, and she will be giving Heather/souloftherose a tutorial on it very soon (which I'll be following closely), presumably in February Heather seems to lean toward April for that at the moment.

I'm not sure how it'll work for the S&S tutorial, since Liz decides how these things are run. If she decides I'm the priority tutee because I asked for it first, that's one thing. Or she may decide to tutor whoever is ready for it soonest, I don't know. In any case, if the tutorial is to proceed at my pace, I won't be ready to reread Sense and Sensibility for at least a few months since I have lots of other reading goals to meet and don't want to do tutorials too close together since it IS a lot of work for the tutee as well as the tutor. When were you thinking you'd like to read it? Have you read it before?

223Smiler69
tammikuu 28, 2014, 9:24 pm

Volume 3, Chapters 5 to 7

Chapter 5

157.
"As to what restraint the apprehensions of disgrace in the corps might throw on a dishonourable elopement with her, I am not able to judge; for I know nothing of the effects that such a step might produce. "

I'm not sure what kind of disgrace, or what the consequences of this disgrace might entail?

158. "They travelled as expeditiously as possible, and, sleeping one night on the road"

Presumably at an inn?

159. "And as for wedding clothes, do not let them wait for that, but tell Lydia she shall have as much money as she chooses to buy them, after they are married"

Mrs Bennet's impeccable logic fully at work here!

160. "Elizabeth lifted up her eyes in amazement, but was too much oppressed to make any reply."

What is she amazed about?

161. "After joining in general lamentations over the dreadful sequel of this event"

What sequel?

162. "It had come with a fare from London; and as he thought that the circumstance of a gentleman and lady's removing from one carriage into another might be remarked"

What's so remarkable about that?

Chapter 6

163.
"They agree with me in apprehending that this false step in one daughter will be injurious to the fortunes of all the others; for who, as Lady Catherine herself condescendingly says, will connect themselves with such a family? "

Mr Collins seems to be taking sadistic pleasure at their misfortune! What happened to the kindly cousin?

164. "He owed a good deal in town, but his debts of honour were still more formidable."

What are debts of honour?

165. "No, Lizzy, let me once in my life feel how much I have been to blame."

At least he's able to take some responsibility here, even if just for a moment... better than his wife who can only think about wedding clothes!

166. "and her residence there will probably be of some duration."

Why so?

167. ""This is a parade," he cried, "which does one good; it gives such an elegance to misfortune! Another day I will do the same; I will sit in my library, in my nightcap and powdering gown, and give as much trouble as I can; or, perhaps, I may defer it till Kitty runs away."

I can't help but like Mr Bennet when he has such great lines!

What is a powdering gown?

168. "No, Kitty, I have at last learnt to be cautious, and you will feel the effects of it. No officer is ever to enter into my house again, nor even to pass through the village. Balls will be absolutely prohibited, unless you stand up with one of your sisters. And you are never to stir out of doors till you can prove that you have spent ten minutes of every day in a rational manner."

I wonder if she would be capable of such a thing...

Chapter 7

169.
"Jane, who was not so light nor so much in the habit of running as Elizabeth"

Is she overweight then? I always assumed her to be rather delicate...

170. "If, as I conclude will be the case, you send me full powers to act in your name throughout the whole of this business, I will immediately give directions to Haggerston for preparing a proper settlement."

Who is Haggerston?

171. "Yet he is such a man!"

What does Mr Bennet mean by this?

224Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 29, 2014, 1:40 am

Let me chime in on 169- I think Jane was the quintessential delicate flower. That would be so in character with her complete passivity in decision making, as opposed to the more active - physically mentally and morally - Elizabeth.

225lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 29, 2014, 2:37 am

Phew! Sorry to be so late responding, people: I have spent a horrifying day plunged into the deprivations of the Middle Ages and subject to the unending torments of the damned...

Or to put it another way, the internet's been down.

>>#215

I think from Austen's point of view, Jane's marriage will be happy but hardly ideal.

>>#216

Interesting observations about language, Nathalie.

Whether or not a girl's education prepared her for such a life was one of the reasons that marriages across social barriers were discouraged. A girl born into the aristocracy or upper classes, growing up in a "great house", would learn by observation and training what was necessary to head such a household; one from Elizabeth's position will have almost everything to learn and could well fail dismally, or at least crack under pressure.

Apart from playing hostess to guests up to and including royalty, and raising her children correctly (as far as that was left within her power), the main duty of a mistress of such a house was to oversee the almost unimaginable number of servants needed to keep such a house in order. A good housekeeper, with whom the mistress could build a solid working relationship, was indispensable.

Austen was in fact very religious, but it wasn't something made a parade of in novels at the time, but rather taken for granted and practised quietly. (When we did Persuasion, Ilana noted that the subject only came up if something was wrong, in that case the issue of Sunday travelling.) Religious faith to a greater or lesser degree was taken more or less for granted for most people, and most young men entering the ministry would be supposed to have "enough"; a real "calling" wasn't considered necessary.

However, certainly some young men would have gone into the church purely to have a profession, or would be brought up knowing that there would be a family "living" waiting for them.

This was early in the 19th century. Moving through to about 1830, there was a perception that society was getting too "liberal" and that too many old institutions were being weakened or set aside; when the 1832 Reform Bill was passed, it had the effect of provoking a backlash and a big push towards more conservatism, including in religious practice. This set off the "Oxford Movement" which (long story short) made religion a very public thing for the rest of the century, involving the inter-Anglican Church tensions (High Church / Low Church) which are a major aspect of the Barchester novels, Protestant vs Catholic brawling, and the strong emergence of the so-called "dissenting" religions like Methodism and Unitarianism, particularly amongst the working classes.

I wouldn't like to speculate about the religious beliefs of today's royals...or anyone else, really. :)

Trollope, by the way, made it clear early on that he was writing about clergymen chiefly as men and a part of society, and that he didn't feel he really had the right to get into serious religious matters.

>>#217

You've had a word with Heather about Love-Letters by now, I take it? :)

Good God, Clarissa! You might want to have a word with Heather about that, too; I shouldn't dare recommend anyone read it. Whether you would "enjoy" it is debatable, but I promise you'll never forget it.

Deism was an important phenomenon in the late 18th century.

I would say that Jane Eyre is quite a strongly religious novel, but in a non-conformist sort of way. But I don't think this is the place for that discussion! :)

At the time there was a standard religious education and a standard practice that most people were brought up with and not many outside influences or radical ideas to shake that. It was later in the 19th century, with enormous advances in science and things like the publication of On The Origin Of Species, that there was a lot more debate and uncertainty about religion in general, and a lot more open agnosticism and even atheism.

>>#218 & 219

Definitely cake!!

>>#221

Yes, sorry Morphy - just an in-joke with Ilana! She and I and Heather hope to be looking at Behn's Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister before too much longer. (April? Okay, April!)

We can certainly discuss the possibility of a tutored read of Sense And Sensibility when we are wrapped up here.

>>#222

As above, Ilana - we'll have a talk about what different people would prefer and get something sorted out.

226lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 29, 2014, 2:59 pm

Chapter 5

157. Someone who did something disgraceful might be stripped of his commission as an officer, or even requested (or forced) to resign from the military. In Wickham's case that would leave him without an income of any kind and ruin him socially.

158. Yes.

159. It's possibly not quite as silly as it sounds: it was common for fashionable engagements to last as long as required for the bride to get her trousseau in order. (Not that anyone should be thinking like that here!)

160. That Mary thinks this is a good time to trot out platitudes...or to suggest that such platitudes might actually be consoling. (They're the opposite!)

161. "This event" is the elopement; the "dreadful sequel" that Elizabeth thinks is certain but that Jane, of course, refuses to believe, is that Lydia has become Wickham's mistress.

162. They're doing it to throw off anyone who might be chasing them, but getting out of one cab and straight into another at the same rank is something a cabbie might notice - mostly because of feeling aggrieved he's not getting a better fare out of them!

Chapter 6

163. He got his marriage proposal sharply rejected, and is now counting his lucky stars.

164. Gambling debts. Perversely, though they were usually to people who could afford to wait for their money, gambling debts were considered far more urgent of payment than debts to tradespeople (who might need the money to feed their families!). Failure to pay a gambling debt promptly was considered disgraceful and would get a man kicked out of polite society - or out of his regiment, if he was in the army. This is why Wickham has done a bunk.

165. Yes, but the key phrase is, Even if just for a moment... :)

166. Wickham is in hiding, and London is the easiest place for people on the run to conceal themselves. He (and Lydia) will have to stay in hiding until he finds some way of paying his debts.

167. During the 18th century, men and women in society powdered their hair. They had special little rooms called powdering closets, where they put on powdering gowns to protect their clothes and a mask over their faces, and had powder worked into their hair, after which it was styled.

The nightcap and powdering gown bit suggests Mr Bennet is imagining himself going a bit nuts...

168. Wait and see. :)

Chapter 7

169 We haven't had much physical description of either, but we know Jane doesn't get as much exercise as Elizabeth. And they might just be different physical types, apart from looking quite different (at least according to Darcy!).

170. From the context, Mr Gardiner's solicitor or man of business; "settlements" means working out the financial arrangements before a marriage.

171 "He's such an awful, dishonest, immoral man!" - she's just left out all the possible adjectives. She's shaking her head over the contradiction, in that they have to get the two of them married, and yet they know what a bad person Wickham is.

227Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 29, 2014, 3:38 am

I'm amazed that the concept of honor and gambling debts go together. I know that various card games are constantly mentioned in the novel, and I know how in other novels people bemoan the fact that someone is drowning in gambling debts; but I didn't realize it was so important to pay them. They didn't even have mafia hit men to break their legs.

228lyzard
tammikuu 29, 2014, 4:36 am

Yes, it's a peculiar definition of "hono(u)r", all right!

They didn't need the Mafia - fail to pay a gambling debt and you were GONE.

Card games within the family were acceptable, but social gambling was out of control at this period in English history: men lost unimaginable fortunes and even entire estates over cards and dice. (NB: this is one of the reasons for the entail - you couldn't bet an entailed estate.)

229Deern
tammikuu 29, 2014, 5:02 am

#225: thank you for these detailed answers, Liz!!
I can't help myself, I always feel a bit of anxiety when reading the "Elizabeth at Pemberley" scenes and have to imagine that her first weeks as wife and mistress of the estate - should she marry Darcy - would be quite difficult, even though she'd have the huge advantage that Georgiana likes her which should give her some better standing with the servants.

I (want to) believe that today people chose the clergy for reasons of faith, but also because they feel a "calling" to become what we call a "Seelsorger" - someone who cares (lovingly) for the souls of the parish members. Imagine you have a Wickham to provide consolation in difficult times, or someone like him, who only chose the profession to have a safe and comfortable income. Mr. Collins - horrible as he is - seems nonetheless to be devoted to his duties.

I start liking the entail.

#217: Clarissa?? Really??
Okay, I myself didn't "hate-hate" it and gave quite a good rating in the end, but it was a very long journey with some great ups and very many downs. I had the advantage to read it with a group over a year so we could always share joy and frustration. :)

230lyzard
tammikuu 29, 2014, 5:13 am

You're welcome, Nathalie - thank you for your thoughtful comments and questions.

And alsoDarcy has a devoted housekeeper, who clearly won't make any trouble or difficulties for whoever he chooses to make Mrs Darcy. You're right about Georgiana's positive influence, though.

I can't imagine anyone today choosing the church except for a genuine calling, though 200 years ago there were all sorts of other incentives.

Oh, Clarissa! As I say, "enjoy" isn't quite the right word but I'm sure no-one ever forgets it. It's an extraordinary novel, albeit an endurance test in many ways. :)

231Morphidae
tammikuu 29, 2014, 8:26 am

Oh, I meant I was looking forward to you and Liz doing the Sense and Sensibility tutored read and I would read it at the same time and follow along. I won't do tutored threads anymore. I was basically told I was a boring tutee.

232southernbooklady
tammikuu 29, 2014, 8:52 am

>239 Morphidae: I start liking the entail.

Of course, without the entail, the Lizzie, Jane and their sisters wouldn't be in such dire straits to begin with.

233jnwelch
tammikuu 29, 2014, 12:22 pm

I'll add my thanks for this tutored read. Great questions from Ilana, and such helpful answers from Liz. I've read the Shapard Annotated Pride and Prejudice, but I'm learning a lot here that wasn't covered there.

I hadn't thought about the daunting task Lizzie would have in running Pemberly, with no training for it. She's so smart and perceptive, plus compassionate, so no doubt she'd eventually end up doing it superbly. But that would be a steep learning curve.

234Nickelini
tammikuu 29, 2014, 12:34 pm

post #209 - I read the Persuasion edition--Persuasion being my favorite Austen novel and Anne being my absolute favorite character. I actually reviewed it a couple years ago:

On the limited charms of stating the obvious


What a detailed review--and very interesting and fun to read. Thanks for the link.

235Nickelini
tammikuu 29, 2014, 1:00 pm

Posts 185 & 186: Not a satire, exactly, but an ironic and often quite critical commentary upon society at the time, particularly with regard to the expectations around marriage.

And yes, that line should effectively be read backwards: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, will soon be the target of everyone with a marriageable daughter."


I hope Helen is still around, because I have some things to add about the famous first sentence of P&P. Forests have been destroyed for the production of paper that has been used to discuss all the many things going on in this sentence.

In Celebrating Pride and Prejudice, by Susannah Fullerton, she devotes an entire chapter to dissecting it. She makes all sorts of interesting observations, but this is the part I want to share with you . . . . "The concept of those first lines of the novel is definitely not universally true in the world of the novel, let alone anywhere else . . . the reader is made to realize that this opening sentence cannot be taken at face value (and therefore the entire novel probably can't either). This book, it appears from its opening, will be about the difference between truths and falsehoods, between what is real and what only appears to be real. Jane Austen is making her reader puzzle, read beyond the words and think from these very first lines; she wrote not for 'dull elves' but for people of perception and intelligence, and she puts those abilities in her audience instantly to work before she zooms in on the particular single men and the women they will marry. She is also showing her reader very plainly that this novel will challenge judgments and cut down to size sweeping generalizations .. . . It is a brilliant scene and mood setter, and it prepares us for the irony, comedy and sheer fun we are bout to enjoy . . . "

Of course the predominant twist in the sentence is the one that Liz pointed out in her answer. In a society where there women outnumbered men, and where their roles and power were so restricted, the greater stress of finding a marriage partner was borne by women. However, there is a sense in which you can read the sentence in a straightforward way: Darcy's job and purpose in life was to maintain both Pemberley and his family lineage. If he is unable to produce an heir, he will fail at this momentous responsibility. So a man of fortune actually does need to find a wife. But yeah, when we meet him at the beginning of the novel, he doesn't appear too stressed about it. He's 28 and somehow I imagine that he's been putting off Caroline Bingley for several years already.

236Nickelini
tammikuu 29, 2014, 1:14 pm

Post #216 - Nathalie - I found your comments on Austen's language and German very interesting. I thought of you when I read the chapter in Celebrating Pride and Prejudice on Austen's writing style, in particular her use of free indirect discourse* (FID), where the author says: "She was not the very first author to use it - Goethe did so in Germany, where it is known as erlebte Rede--but she was the first English novelist to use FID consistently and extensively."

I think the FID sometimes confuses people up when they're not used to it--actually, I think mostly they don't know they're reading it and couldn't say why they are confused. I only started liking Austen after learning about this aspect of her writing style.

*FID: "involves the blending of that third person narration with first-person narrative speech. . . . FID enables us to share a character's viewpoint, join him or her emotionally and share joys and fears, prejudices and amusement It permits us to learn things that perhaps that character would never dare to speak aloud. FID focuses on interiority of character, and provides a more intimate view. It examines inner consciousness in a way not always permitted by more standard forms of narration. It seriously alters the way in which a story is told, and is a sophisticated device that demands skill in the handling. Jane Austen loved FID because it allowed her great scope for irony . . ."

237SandDune
tammikuu 29, 2014, 2:55 pm

#236 in particular her use of free indirect discourse - when I first learnt about free indirect discourse I realised that this was probably one of the reasons than I liked Austen so much.

238lyzard
tammikuu 29, 2014, 2:56 pm

>>#231

I'm sorry you had that experience, Morphy. Of course, these things are very much a "make it up as you go along" experience and I guess you never quite know how they are going to turn out. If you were willing to take another shot at it, I would be very happy to do Sense And Sensibility with you whenever you liked.

>>#232

The entail is neither good or bad; it was a legal process put in place to serve a purpose. The bottom line is that the entail was intended to preserve estates, not people.

>>#233

Thanks, Joe - that's good to hear!

>>#235

Quite right, Joyce - thank you for adding those comments.

And of course, this particular "truth" is universally acknowledged in a very small world... :)

It's interesting to reflect on the different degrees of pressure to marry. Men in Darcy's position* were expected to marry whether they wanted to or not, and most of them did; but there was no hurry about it: many men in this position did not marry until they were about forty or even older - and usually then chose quite young women; age gaps of twenty years or more were common in the 19th century - but if they did not it was viewed as a choice and not a failure. Whereas a woman who had not married by about twenty-five was considered to have failed in her duty to her family.

(*We know of no male heir on the Darcy side. Is Pemberley entailed? Would Georgiana inherit?)

>>#236

More interesting comments, thank you again.

One of the things that always strikes me about this novel on a re-read is how easily you slip inside Elizabeth's head without even realising it - which as you point out is a consequence of Austen's use of free indirect discourse. It's a style that allows the author to manipulate the reader's perceptions in a very subtle way, and Austen makes full use of that power here.

239Morphidae
tammikuu 29, 2014, 3:32 pm

>238 lyzard: You and Ilana do such a fabulous job, I'm willing to wait and follow along once you have it set up.

240Nickelini
tammikuu 29, 2014, 3:51 pm

Yes, I'll follow along with S&S too. That was one I read after having watched the Emma Thompson movie countless times. Although I enjoy the movie, I have some real problems with the book, so a tutored read would probably be beneficial! I won't have as much to say as I do here, so will be a bit more of a lurker.

241Deern
tammikuu 30, 2014, 5:31 am

#236 Joyce: I didn't know that style had a name, but now you're saying it: it is much used in German literature, and we read a good dose of Goethe at school which surely explains why it is so familiar.

I am learning so much here!

#238 and 232: when I said I started "liking" the entail, I meant that until this TR I only knew it from novels where it usually brings a disadvantage to a family, mainly the women. But seeing how many British classics I read are dealing with gambling debts, it was surely a good idea that at least the estates couldn't be thrown into the "pot". I also like the idea of the responsibility for the country's cultural heritage that comes with it and that people had a right to enjoy that heritage by visiting the estates. So much foresight...

I only last year reread S&S, but I'll happily follow the discussions on another TR.

242southernbooklady
tammikuu 30, 2014, 9:20 am

I'm all for the preservation of historical sites and making national treasures accessible to the nation, but the entail just sucked. It left women and any illegitimate children out in the cold. Depending, as Blanche might say, on the kindness of family. One reason, no doubt, that family connections were so vital. They were the only thing that existed as a social safety net. It left the owners of the estates to rack up huge personal debts (even if they didn't gamble) that couldn't be resolved. If the estate was not profitable, then they were sunk.

People think of Jane Austen's novels as looking-for-marriage stories but they are also about people under the threat of eviction and being uprooted. The Bennets are in a tizzy because there is no male heir to Longbourn--all that wailing by the mother about being turned out to starve in the cold was hysterical, but to the point. In Persuasion the cloud of gloom casting a pall over the Elliots are just the debts they can't pay, it's that the family is estranged from the heir who could presumably secure the family's future in the estate by marrying the eldest Miss Eliiot. Since that isn't likely to happen, (and also since he's a worthless son of a bitch) they are merely counting the days until they are cut adrift.

In Sense and Sensibility the family really is cut adrift. The father has barely been buried before the new heirs are moving in, the girls and their mother must move out (although not without first accounting for all the silver).

243Smiler69
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 30, 2014, 1:05 pm

Again, some very interesting things going on here, glad to see so many joining the discussion!

Well, I managed to finish the novel in the last two days. But instead of overwhelming you with my question from the last twelve chapters today Liz, I'll post them in two batches.

Volume 3, Chapters 8 to 13

Chapter 8

172.
"The satisfaction of prevailing on one of the most worthless young men in Great Britain to be her husband might then have rested in its proper place."

I don't understand this comment.

173. "Mrs. Bennet had no turn for economy, and her husband's love of independence had alone prevented their exceeding their income."

How so?

174. "It was a fortnight since Mrs. Bennet had been downstairs; but on this happy day she again took her seat at the head of her table, and in spirits oppressively high"

Oppressive for the rest of the family I gather?

175. "I will not encourage the impudence of either, by receiving them at Longbourn."

I'm not sure that not receiving them would make much difference. Would it have been usual for him to turn them away even though they were married?

176. "She was more alive to the disgrace which her want of new clothes must reflect on her daughter's nuptials, than to any sense of shame at her eloping and living with Wickham a fortnight before they took place."

Ok. We know this woman isn't especially intelligent, but this seems extreme! Isn't it more than likely that Lydia and he have been intimate during their elopement?

177. "How Wickham and Lydia were to be supported in tolerable independence, she could not imagine."

Please explain what this means. And what would be the alternative? On who could they depend on? Other than Darcy, I mean.

178. "It is Mr. Wickham's intention to go into the regulars"

What is this?

179. "He has the promise of an ensigncy"

And this?

180. ""She is so fond of Mrs. Forster," said she, "it will be quite shocking to send her away! And there are several of the young men, too, that she likes very much. The officers may not be so pleasant in General ——'s regiment.""

She really is shockingly stupid! How could she want her married daughter to be close to 'several young men she likes very much'??

Chapter 9

181.
"she was sure he would kill more birds on the first of September, than any body else in the country."

Why especially on the first of September?

182. "To be sure London was rather thin"

What is meant here?

183. "my uncle was called away upon business to that horrid man Mr Stone"

Do we know who Mr Stone is?

Chapter 10

184.
"They were in —— street."

Why did authors at the time leave blanks instead of naming certain places and people instead of just making up names?

185. "his commission purchased"

What does this mean?

186. "But slyness seems the fashion."

She's saying this because she thinks Elizabeth has kept things from her too, correct?

Chapter 11

187.
""Well, all I know is, that it will be abominably rude if you do not wait on him."

Will it really, or is she saying that to try to persuade him to go call on Bingley again?

188. "To Jane, he could be only a man whose proposals she had refused, and whose merit she had undervalued; but to her own more extensive information, he was the person to whom the whole family were indebted for the first of benefits, and whom she regarded herself with an interest, if not quite so tender, at least as reasonable and just as what Jane felt for Bingley."

This is what Elizabeth tells herself, but not necessarily what she feels, I think? Is this an example of FID as Joyce described it?

189. ""When you have killed all your own birds, Mr. Bingley," said her mother, "I beg you will come here, and shoot as many as you please on Mr. Bennet's manor. I am sure he will be vastly happy to oblige you, and will save all the best of the covies for you."

What are covies?

Chapter 13

190.
"Her younger sisters soon began to make interest with her for objects of happiness which she might in future be able to dispense."

I don't understand.

191. "He made a little mistake to be sure; but it is to the credit of his modesty."

How so? Because he doesn't presume she is in love with him?

244lyzard
tammikuu 30, 2014, 4:19 pm

>>#242

All very true, Nicki - these *are* "looking for marriage novels", but not in a romantic, happy-ever after sense, but because marriage was a woman's only refuge against financial disaster - and wasn't even that, unless she made a good one ("good", in the sense of a dependable husband).

245lyzard
tammikuu 30, 2014, 5:12 pm

Because they're so much less overwhelming, when they come in batches! :D

Chapter 8

172. That's its bad enough that Wickham had to be bribed into marrying Lydia - Mr Bennet can't even afford to do the bribing himself, but has to rely on his brother-in-law's generosity. If it were up to Mr Bennet's finances, the marriage wouldn't take place. ("Satisfaction" here is of course heavily sarcastic.)

173. That although Mr Bennet didn't manage to save much money, he refused to get into debt.

174. Yes.

175. A daughter who sinned the way that Lydia has could expect to be cut off from her family permanently. It would rather be extremely unusual for them to be received, than not, even though things have been "patched up" with a marriage.

(Conversely, it was making a bad marriage, rather than "sinning" in this way, that would tend to get a young man cut off.)

176. Yes - but this is a woman who has thought of nothing for twenty years but getting her daughters married, and now that one of them is, that's all she sees.

(This is, I would suggest, Austen's commentary on one of the consequences of society's marriage-at-all-cost attitude.)

177. That's exactly the point: she can't imagine how Wickham is to earn an income, or how the pair of them will survive unless the family supports them. But the family can't afford to support them. They have accepted Mr Gardiner's generosity to this point, but that cannot go on.

178. It means that Wickham will be joining the regular army. Up until now he has been in the militia, the "Home Guard" whose duty was to stay in England to defend it in the event of an invasion (which was a real threat during the Napoleoic Wars). By joining the regular army, there is every chance he will be deployed overseas to fight.

(Austen didn't need to spell any of this out for her contemporary readers - it is in such ways she does make reference to current world events.)

179. A position in a regiment as a junior officer.

180. I don't think she's thinking of anything worse than Lydia having her friends around her. (Lydia always would have more male than female friends, I imagine!)

Chapter 9

181. That was the beginning of the hunting season.

182. Thin of company: there were distinct times of the year when fashionable people lived in the city or the country. At this time of the year, the end of summer, most people would still be in the country.

183. From the context he is likely to be a lawyer somehow involved in the settlements (everone involved would have their own lawyer).

Chapter 10

184. Novelists used real names and places, but avoided doing so if the connotation was unpleasant. Here, Austen declines to name the street where Wickham and Lydia were living in sin. We note at the same time that she does not hesitate to name "Gracechurch Street" as the residence of the Gardiners.

185. At this time, to obtain a position as an officer in a regiment, you had to pay for it. An ensign's commission, which is what Wickham obtains, cost around five hundred pounds.

186. Yes. It's very obvious to her now that Elizabeth knows Darcy much better than she ever let on.

Chapter 11

187. It would, in fact, be rude: exchanging calls on someone's return to a neighbourhood was another of the expected social practices.

188. It's suggesting, I think, that Elizabeth has a greater tendency to think about and analyse her feelings, and to have "rational" reasons for those feelings, whereas Jane is all about the emotion and not too much thinking.

Yes, I would say that's an example of FID - Joyce, what would you say about it?

189. Small flocks of birds. Birds that were hunted, like pheasant, grouse and partridges, were "preserved" the rest of the time, i.e. looked after and encouraged to breed, so there were plenty to kill come September. :(

Chapter 13

190. Janes is going to be rich, so her sisters immediately begin badgering her for favours that their parents can't afford.

191. Yes - men didn't (don't??) often err in the direction of too much modesty, but Bingley was ready to believe it when Darcy told him he didn't think Jane loved him.

246Nickelini
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 31, 2014, 2:38 pm



A little levity for a Friday. Which reminds me--we've talked a lot about the social commentary, but no one has talked about the steaminess of the novel, and that's one of the reasons I love it. Austen creates so much tension -- without the two leads even touching ("eye sex" I saw it called somewhere). Wuthering Heights and Jane Eyre are two other classic novels that I rate as 5 star reads, but I find the male love interests repugnant in both. Mr Darcy, on the other hand, is a fictional hero I find swoon-worthy. Which reminds me of another "Hark! A Vagrant" comic. I'll find it and return.

edited to say: "without the two leads even touching" . . . well, I guess they touched when they danced. But that was public, and Elizabeth also danced with Mr Collins . . .

247Nickelini
tammikuu 31, 2014, 12:26 pm

#246 - found it . . .



Happy weekend, everyone.

248jnwelch
tammikuu 31, 2014, 2:32 pm

LOL! Thank you, Joyce.

249Citizenjoyce
tammikuu 31, 2014, 3:06 pm

Men turning gay, I love it. No one can resist Mr. Darcy.

250Smiler69
tammikuu 31, 2014, 3:35 pm

Fun comics! I went searching for more and saw a few, but nothing as good as what Joyce shared with us already.

251Nickelini
tammikuu 31, 2014, 3:59 pm

#250 - I really like this one too. Excuse me for bringing up the Brontes again, but this is just so true:

252lyzard
tammikuu 31, 2014, 4:42 pm

...and that, my friends, is why, over time, Anne has found a spot as the Bronte closest to my heart.

253lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 31, 2014, 9:07 pm

To go back to what Joyce said in #246, I find this a significant attraction about the literature of this time: that it had to be a meeting of the minds, because nothing else was allowed to meet. I'm afraid I've gotten to the point where I find rampant genitalia very tiresome.

One of the most interesting novels along these lines is (Peggy's not listening, is she??) George Meredith's The Egoist, which on one level is almost entirely about "eye-sex": an astonishing amount goes on between the two leads purely via eye contact; far more than it ever does verbally. When it eventually it builds up to, He held her hand..., it is actually strangely steamy. :)

254Morphidae
tammikuu 31, 2014, 5:19 pm

rampant genitalia

That made me snort and gave me a vision of a disembodied vagina and penis dueling it out.

255Smiler69
tammikuu 31, 2014, 9:59 pm

I'll be back to post the last round of questions tomorrow. In too much pain today and need to go lie down.

256lyzard
tammikuu 31, 2014, 10:14 pm

I'm sorry. :(

Of course, whenever you feel up to it. Take care!

257Helenliz
helmikuu 1, 2014, 12:05 pm

I'm at Volume 2 chapter 4 (and studiously not reading the thread too far ahead) and have a question.

The passage at the end of the chapter, where the trip to the lakes is raised, Lizzie says "... And when we do return, it shall not be like other travellers, without being able to give one accurate idea of anything. We will know where we have gone - we will recollect what we have seen. ... Let our first effusions be less insupportable than those of generality of travellers".

is this her thinking she is above the run of the mill? or were most travelers about as interesting as the bore with the album we come across today. We suspect she is (or considers herself to be) the clever one in the family (and, let's face it, so far the younger ones don't promise much in that department), is this a hint of intellectual snobbery?

258lyzard
helmikuu 1, 2014, 3:30 pm

Hi, Helen - please do continue to use this thread as you go forward, even if Ilana posts her final questions. (Likewise anyone else still reading!)

No, I think she's just having a joke - as you say, just as today we might promise ourselves we won't force anyone to look at our holiday photographs, but then we go and do it anyway. Possibly she knows there is a good chance of her going over the top with her holiday stories, as she is so genuinely excited to be making this trip.

259Helenliz
helmikuu 1, 2014, 3:41 pm

Thanks Lyzard. I have to say that, while this may never be my favourite book, I'm getting far more out of it than I ever have before. Darcy's proposal seemed to come right out of the blue previously, now I can see that it's been brewing for some time.

260Smiler69
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 1, 2014, 10:19 pm

I started listening to Longbourn yesterday and am about three quarters of the way through now. Really great book, and I see now how true it is it can very well stand alone, but of course it's that much more satisfying to read with P&P fresh in my mind so I can detect where the two run parallel courses. Wickham, true to form is a detestable character, actually worse even than he is in the original, and anyone expecting a cozy sweet little romp might be very surprised to find among other things, that the novel dwells on the Napoleonic wars from the point of view of a soldier.

Here I go with my last round of questions (skipping from ch. 13 to 15):

Volume 3, Chapters 15 to The End

Chapter 15

192.
"The discomposure of spirits which this extraordinary visit threw Elizabeth into, could not be easily overcome; nor could she, for many hours, learn to think of it less than incessantly. Lady Catherine, it appeared, had actually taken the trouble of this journey from Rosings, for the sole purpose of breaking off her supposed engagement with Mr. Darcy. It was a rational scheme, to be sure!"

A sarcastic remark?

193. ""You look conscious. Young ladies have great penetration in such matters as these; but I think I may defy even your sagacity, to discover the name of your admirer. This letter is from Mr. Collins."

I don't remember seeing this word used this way before, though it's meaning is clear enough.

194. "The rest of his letter is only about his dear Charlotte's situation, and his expectation of a young olive-branch."

What's this? Is Charlotte pregnant?

195. "You are not going to be missish, I hope, and pretend to be affronted at an idle report."

What does this expression mean?

Chapter 16

196.
"Very little was said by either; Kitty was too much afraid of him to talk; Elizabeth was secretly forming a desperate resolution; and perhaps he might be doing the same."

A desperate resolution to do what?

Chapter 17

197.
"Darcy was not of a disposition in which happiness overflows in mirth; and Elizabeth, agitated and confused, rather knew that she was happy than felt herself to be so; for, besides the immediate embarrassment, there were other evils before her."

What embarrassment?

198. "Why, I must confess that I love him better than I do Bingley."

I don't get the joke.

199. "I know that you could be neither happy nor respectable, unless you truly esteemed your husband; unless you looked up to him as a superior."

That makes no sense!

200. "Every thing was too recent for gaiety, but the evening passed tranquilly away; there was no longer anything material to be dreaded, and the comfort of ease and familiarity would come in time."

Why is she not able to feel gay? And what does the last bit mean? The familiarity of marriage?

201. What is pin money?

202. "And a special licence. You must and shall be married by a special licence."

What's this?

203. "But my dearest love, tell me what dish Mr. Darcy is particularly fond of, that I may have it to-morrow."
This was a sad omen of what her mother's behaviour to the gentleman himself might be."


Why a sad omen?

Chapter 18

204.
"if he did shrug his shoulders, it was not till Sir William was out of sight."

What does this shrug mean?

And as an aside, I never can understand why 'shoulders' need to be specified when it is said someone is shrugging; after all, what else can one shrug?

Chapter 19

205.
"I wish I could say, for the sake of her family, that the accomplishment of her earnest desire in the establishment of so many of her children produced so happy an effect as to make her a sensible, amiable, well-informed woman for the rest of her life; though perhaps it was lucky for her husband, who might not have relished domestic felicity in so unusual a form, that she still was occasionally nervous and invariably silly."

Sarcasm again?

206. "Their manner of living, even when the restoration of peace dismissed them to a home, was unsettled in the extreme."

What is meant here?

207. "His affection for her soon sunk into indifference; hers lasted a little longer; and in spite of her youth and her manners, she retained all the claims to reputation which her marriage had given her."

What reputation is this?

261lyzard
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 1, 2014, 11:04 pm

Chapter 15

192. Very sarcastic, yes. :)

193. Yes, more commonly it is used from the point of view of the individual - "She was conscious that she blushed upon hearing him mentioned" or some such thing - rather than the other person noting that someone looked conscious.

194. Yes. It was all right to talk of such things at this time (albeit obliquely); later in the century. much less so.

195. To be (or pretend to be) all prim and proper and easily offended. Obviously said of young women, not young men!

Chapter 16

196. Hers, to bring up the subject of Lydia and thank him for what he has done, even though he wanted it kept secret - and even though its humiliating for her to mention it to him; knowing, she doesn't feel that she can let such a piece of generosity go unmarked.

His, well... :)

Chapter 17

197. Just feeling (heh!) conscious and uncomfortable because of her situation, being in the same room with Darcy and her family and having such a secret (and having to watch their behaviour, when they don't know), and knowing what's to come.

198. Pretending that she thinks Jane expects her to love Bingley best (there's probably been a LOT of "You do love him, Lizzy, don't you?" conversations going on). Of course Jane wants and expects her to love her own husband best.

199. Well...it made sense at the time: it was pretty much taken for granted that a husband would be, or should be, superior to his wife, and as we've discussed, given the differences in education and experience at the time between boys and girls, it was often unavoidable. Under both social and Christian tenets, it was also taken for granted that the husband would always be the "ruler" in the marriage (hence "obey" in the woman's wedding vows).

Mr Bennet seems to believe that Elizabeth could only be happy in a marriage where she could "look up to" and respect her husband (as he, of course, could not respect his wife. But---note that when Elizabeth is thinking about her marriage, she envisages it as a partnership in which each of them gives and receives (Chapter 8: It was an union that must have been to the advantage of both...), so we're not necessarily meant to buy into the notion of superiority in either party.

200. She's too overwhelmed at the moment. "Familiarity" means getting used to the idea that he does love her and they are engaged and she is going to be mistress of Pemberley...it's all a bit much!

201. A wife's personal allowance, or pocket-money: it was assumed that it would be spent on trivial items such as pins, since all the serious household expenses would be administered by the husband. (Despite the name it was sometimes quite a large sum.)

202. People could be engaged for any length of time, but ordinarily the quickest the could get married was three weeks, as "the banns" would have to be called three times: that is, an announcement of their intention to marry would be announced in church on three consecutive Sundays.

Alternatively, if both parties were of age and there was no impediment, a special license could be purchased (quite expensively) that would permit them to marry immediately.

Mrs Bennet may be afraid that Darcy might yet get away.

203. She's gone from loud announcements about how much she hates him to sucking up. Middle ground seems out of the question.

Chapter 18

204. That Sir William is a bore and a nuisance and a toady. That he shrugs when he is out of sight indicates that Darcy is thinking a lot more these days about his behaviour and trying not to be overtly impolite or impatient, as he was at the beginning.

A hand gesture indicating "I don't know" or "What are you going to do?" was originally also called a shrug, but that usage has been lost.

Chapter 19

205. Yes.

206. As is clarified in the next sentence - that they're always short of cash, always getting into debt - perhaps having to move very frequently, always looking for a cheaper place to live.

"The restoration of peace" refers to the abdication of Napoleon, and his subsequent exile on Elba. It was thought at the time that this marked the end of the ongoing war, but Napoleon escaped in 1815 and there was another conflict that ended with the Battle of Waterloo.

With temporary peace the army camps broke up and the men went home. "Home" for Wickham and Lydia is not such an easy thing.

207. Simply that she is accepted as a married woman (and married women were respected above unmarried women, no matter what they might have done!), and that the "reputation" she forfeited by running away with Wickham was restored by her marriage. (Later in the century she would have been a permanent social outcast.)

262lyzard
helmikuu 1, 2014, 11:06 pm



WELL DONE, ILANA!!!!

263Citizenjoyce
helmikuu 2, 2014, 12:51 am

Well done both of you. I have a new respect for Jane Austin thanks to you.

264ronincats
helmikuu 2, 2014, 1:14 am

Bravo, both of you indeed! Ilana for taking the time to ask excellent questions and Liz for the knowledge and kindness to answer so thoroughly that even those of us more familiar with the language and times learned new things!

I just finished Longbourn last night, but haven't written a review yet.

265Apolline
helmikuu 2, 2014, 8:30 am

Thank you both for interesting questions and answers! I have lesaren da lot, and will probably follow the next tutorial as well:) whenever that happens,

266Morphidae
helmikuu 2, 2014, 9:22 am

Great job! I look forward to the next Austen. I'll join in if it's Sense and Sensibility.

267Athabasca
helmikuu 2, 2014, 10:52 am

Thanks to both of you. It's been a bit like reading the book together with a group of friends, one of whom actually knows something! Very enjoyable - you've both added quite a lot to my understanding and enjoyment of a book I must have read half a dozen times. Looking forward to whatever you do next.

268Oregonreader
helmikuu 2, 2014, 11:02 am

Thank you both. It's been very enjoyable and thought-provoking. I'd love to lurk along with the next one!

269Smiler69
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 2, 2014, 12:05 pm

Thank you so much Liz, I really appreciated your input. I don't know if I'll write a review per se, since I did write one the first time (http://www.librarything.com/work/2773690/reviews/68038151) though of course my views on it have changed quite a lot, but if it's any indication of what you've done for my appreciation, P&P has gone from my original three star rating to a 4.5 star read for me. I actually look forward to my next reread with my newfound understanding.

Thank you so much for all that joined us and for your kind comments about this tutorial thread. I did feel I owed it to lurkers and joiners to ask lots of question to ensure everyone gets something out of the process, so glad it payed off for several of you. I look forward to doing it all over again with Sense and Sensibility, though that'll probably happen later on in the year.

Now I guess I'm well prepared to tackle Pride and Prejudice and Zombies: The Classic Regency Romance - Now with Ultraviolent Zombie Mayhem!

270Helenliz
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 2, 2014, 1:48 pm

I've finished as well. I'm never going to claim to love this, but there's a whole load more in this than I'd ever found before. I think I had the tone entirely wrong - I was reading it very straight, it never occurred to me that there was irony and some serious tongue in cheek going on in there. the image of prim Miss Austen doesn't really sit well with some of the observations she was making on the state of marriage.

That's certainly going to make for an interesting discussion on Tuesday at our book group meeting.

Thanks Ilana for asking loads of questions, to Lyzard for answering and to everyone else for chipping in with other perspectives, images and racy cartoons!

I bought Longbourn for himself for Christmas, as he has a bit of a P&P fetish (we have on DVD just about every adaptation & film there's been!) Last year he got bought Death comes to Pemberley. I read that, but haven't got to Longbourn yet. If authors would care to keep bringing out P&P spin-offs, my Christmas present dilemma will be solved for ever >:-)

I will now mull over my review...

271jnwelch
helmikuu 2, 2014, 2:20 pm

Bravo to both of you! This was fun and educational.

I'm a Longbourn fan. I hope those reading it enjoy it.

272evilmoose
helmikuu 2, 2014, 3:19 pm

Thanks to both of you! I've read P&P many times, on top of studying it in my final year of high school, but I still had fun learning all sorts of interesting new things throughout this thread. Hurrah! I'm looking forward to another thread like this now :)

273lyzard
helmikuu 2, 2014, 6:39 pm

Thank you all for your kind words - it's particularly pleasing to hear that even people who know this book backwards have found some new ways to think about it.

Most thanks here must go to Ilana, though - these tutored reads tend to stand or fall according to the willingness of the tutee to put in the time and effort and ask all those questions. Responding is the easy bit! :)

(And by the way, Helen - "prim Miss Austen" is a fictional construct invented by her family after her death, when they promoted a false image of her as a gentle, kindly spinster aunt and heavily censored her correspondence, which showed that she was anything but!)

274Nickelini
helmikuu 3, 2014, 3:38 am

I think I had the tone entirely wrong - I was reading it very straight, it never occurred to me that there was irony and some serious tongue in cheek going on in there. the image of prim Miss Austen doesn't really sit well with some of the observations she was making on the state of marriage.

Helen --that's exactly how I felt after my first Austen, which was Emma. I got that it was social commentary, but like you say, I got the tone entirely wrong. It took me 4 years to read, and when I was done I threw it at the wall. Then I studied Mansfield Park at university, and learned how to read her--and fell madly in love. I want to hear about your book club discussion (unless it's just an Austen-lovefest, and then spare us the details).

As for Sense and Sensibility, I hope somehow I hear about it.I find that one much more of a problem than P&P. Deern drew my attention to this one (thanks, Nathalie!), and I'm so glad I was here. I'm actually going to print this whole discussion out, highlight the really good bits, and stick it into one of my copies of the book.

275Smiler69
helmikuu 3, 2014, 3:45 pm

>273 lyzard: Most thanks here must go to Ilana, though - these tutored reads tend to stand or fall according to the willingness of the tutee to put in the time and effort and ask all those questions

Let's just agree it's a collaborative effort. For one thing, I must say a lot of credit goes to Madeline too. I watched the first couple of tutorials you did with her Liz, and I was simply astounded at how many questions she asked, and the range of those questions, many of which I wouldn't have thought to ask myself, but which always ended up teaching me something. Having done a few of these with you now, I've definitely seen the payoff of following her example. I must say I'm always astounded by the depth of your knowledge, and been meaning to ask you all along how many times you've read P&P Liz, or any of the Austen novels for that matter. That is, if you're still counting!

>274 Nickelini: Joyce, I must say I'm very glad you joined in on this tutorial because you definitely helped liven up the conversation and your contributions were much appreciated.

Liz will be able to provide more info on this, but she had a tutored read main thread going last year, where upcoming tutorials were announced, perhaps there'll be another one this year? Or do we continue posting on the old thread? Or maybe we can just confirm the Sense and Sensibility tutorial on this thread? Liz? In any case, between the two of us, we tend to post about it a bit everywhere (I visit some of the more popular threads like Mark's/msf59 and Paul's/PauCranswick to mention it). I'll give plenty of advance notice as I like to plan these things a few months in advance to make sure I've cleared room on my schedule for it.

That being said, there is a chance I may want to get to Sense and Sensibility sooner than I'd originally anticipated as I've had to drop out of my art classes for health reasons last week, with a migraine that persists to plague me after 13 weeks, which means I'll welcome more planned activities during these winter months.

Liz: how about we book S&S just before or just after Love Letters Between a Nobleman, say mid-to-late March?

276Nickelini
helmikuu 3, 2014, 4:12 pm

>274 Nickelini: Joyce, I must say I'm very glad you joined in on this tutorial because you definitely helped liven up the conversation and your contributions were much appreciated.

Oh, thank you. I'm going to miss it here--I could do all P&P all the time.

I just copied this thread into a Word document -- 159 pages! I think I'll do some editing before I print that.

277lyzard
helmikuu 3, 2014, 4:40 pm

Oh, it definitely comes down to the tutee - you and Madeline and Heather have laid the groundwork for some wonderful sessions.

I didn't set up a tutored read thread this year because it all fell apart pretty badly after a good beginning. Suz's leading of Wolf Hall went well, but otherwise we had a number of tutored reads that stuttered and spluttered and stopped: tutees discovered that they didn't really want a tutored read but rather a group read to keep them going, or found out they didn't want to (or need to) ask questions, and it just didn't work. Instead of a group exercise as we tried to arrange, it ended up just looking like self-promotion on my part - "Look at this thing I do!" There was still that core group that knew about them and participated, but it became more of a low-key personal exercise.

I know that at one point you were resistant to the idea of doing tutored reads back-to-back, Ilana, and I was scheduling to try to avoid that - but if you're now looking for such activities to get you through the winter, I can certainly re-jig the schedule again. I am booked in March for the group read of The Last Chronicle Of Barset, although I'm trying to find out at the moment if the participants have any interest in bringing it forward a bit. Perhaps we could schedule Sense And Sensibility for April and Love-Letters Between A Nobleman And His Sister for May? Or the other way around? I'm quite flexible, so you ponder what would suit you better (and not be too much), and let me know.

And I need to touch base with Madeline about our Gothic novels, too - yike!! :)

278lyzard
helmikuu 3, 2014, 4:44 pm

...as to your other question, I stopped counting my Austen re-reads many years ago. :)

Back when I was young and carefree {*cough*} and had regular proper holidays, I always carried my paperback Austens along with me when I was travelling.* And I'd read them each many times before that, from my mid-teens onwards. Never get tired of them, though...

(*For some reason Sense And Sensibility was always the one I read on the plane.)

Joyce, I agree with you completely that Sense And Sensibility is a problematic novel, though I think the discomfort is intentional. I look forward to discussing that with you!

279Smiler69
helmikuu 3, 2014, 6:46 pm

...as to your other question, I stopped counting my Austen re-reads many years ago.

That's what I thought. Would you care to venture a guess as far as P&P goes?

About the tutorial, I'd forgotten you had the Trollope in March, sorry about that. I don't know if I'm comfortable rearranging your whole schedule to fit in S&S earlier though, so I'll let you decide on that. If it's inconvenient for anyone, we can wait till the spring too.

Gothic novels: I can't remember now, did you already give a tutorial on The Mysteries of Udolpho? I'd like to read it eventually in preparation for a reread of Northanger Abbey which was one of the JA novels I liked upon first reading it. No rush on that though, as I've got several big books planned this year.

280lyzard
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 3, 2014, 6:55 pm

I couldn't possibly guess. I can tell you that the first time I read it, it was an abridged, Reader's Digest edition (and I was young enough not to have quite grasped the significance of "abridged"), so I got quite a suprise when I tried a different edition.

I'm happy to go with whichever you prefer in April.

No, I think The Mysteries Of Udolpho might not be to Madeleine's taste (for its sheer length among other things) and I've actually advised her against it. However, she and I are supposed to be giving The Italian a go this year (since that was Radcliffe's reaction to Lewis's The Monk, which Madeleine very much enjoyed), but we don't have a date set for it.

If you are interested in Udolpho, however... :)

281Smiler69
helmikuu 3, 2014, 7:20 pm

:-)

Why did I know you'd say that? (on Udolpho I mean)

I got The Monk last year and will definitely keep your tutorial thread in mind when I get to it. I'd forgotten about Madeline's aversion to hefty tomes. Of course I'll only follow your tutorial with her once I've read Lewis's book.

P&P rereads: A dozen times? Two dozen? Fifty times? More than that? If it's any kind of reference, Patricia Meyer Spacks who edited one of the P&P annotated version said in her intro that she's read it somewhere between 40 and 50 times, and she teaches a university course on it, if I'm not mistaken.

April is spring already, at which point I'll likely be taking classes again, so at that point it matters not whether it's in May, which I guess I would prefer since I'm not comfortable with changing Heather's plans, as she booked April first.

282Smiler69
helmikuu 4, 2014, 1:54 pm

Latest update: I've just a few minutes ago ordered an 'as new' Everyman's Library edition of Sense and Sensibility. :-)

283Nickelini
helmikuu 4, 2014, 3:32 pm

#282 - I have two annotated versions of S&S, so I might have something to say after all (I don't hold it in fond regard as I do P&P). I'm wondering if I'll like Marianne Dashwood this time 'round.

284lyzard
helmikuu 4, 2014, 4:18 pm

...I wonder if you're supposed to? :)

285Smiler69
helmikuu 4, 2014, 7:11 pm

I remember being favourable impressed with the beginning of the novel when I first read S&S—my very first Jane Austen novel—with her delicious characterization of the despicable John and Fanny, but things took a tumble when Marianne sprains her ankle and is rescued by the 'dashing hero'...

*major eye roll* — puhhleazzzze!

Anyway, despite that (ahem) faux pas, I look forward to the tutorial.
Are you sure you can't handle two tutorials in the same month Liz? :-))

286lyzard
helmikuu 4, 2014, 7:43 pm

{Opens mouth to begin argument about S&S. Realises it's the wrong time / place and closes it.}

How about a compromise? Mid-March? Let everyone get settled into the Trollope group read, and then start up over here?

287Smiler69
helmikuu 4, 2014, 9:39 pm

YES!!! :-)))

288lyzard
helmikuu 4, 2014, 9:47 pm

Okay, then... :)

289Nickelini
helmikuu 5, 2014, 2:53 am

#286{Opens mouth to begin argument about S&S. Realises it's the wrong time / place and closes it.}

Yep, I did that too.

290lyzard
helmikuu 5, 2014, 5:02 am

See you next month, Joyce! :D

291CDVicarage
helmikuu 5, 2014, 7:45 am

I shall be here, too. S&S is probably my least favourite Austen novel, though that still puts it way above most other non-Austen novels!

292jnwelch
helmikuu 5, 2014, 11:32 am

>291 CDVicarage: Well said. The same is true for me. Although Emma Thompson's film of it was terrific.

293Helenliz
helmikuu 5, 2014, 2:41 pm

Well we had our book club discussion last night. Mostly positive, but mixed response. We had one person who just loves it (but did admit that she had to be in the right mood to read it) and a few who liked it. We agreed that you have to pay attention to read it, it's not an easy read that you can dip in and out of it - it repays solid attention.
We may have mentioned Colin Firth and that lake, but only in passing (honest)

294Oregonreader
helmikuu 5, 2014, 10:50 pm

I have been a faithful lurker on this thread but didn't have many questions. I think that's because I've read P&P at least a dozen times and felt like I understood it. But I don't feel that way about S&S and would be thrilled to be part of a tutored read on that one. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks to all of you for making this a great experience.

295lyzard
helmikuu 5, 2014, 10:58 pm

We'll look forward to having you there, Jan! At this point I'm envisaging the tutored read beginning on about the 15th March.

296Smiler69
helmikuu 6, 2014, 7:56 pm

>295 lyzard: Yes, around March 15 sounds just about right.


Meanwhile, Joe (jnwelch) and I have started a discussion on my thread about male Austen fans. With Joe's blessing, I'll copy our exchange here in case anyone is interested in joining in the discussion:

Smiler69: "I'm always a bit surprised when I find men who are true Jane Austen fans, as I know you are, both because of your recent comments on Longbourn and visits to the P&P tutorial thread. Of course, I've come across several others on LT, and I guess what surprises me is I find JA is very much a woman's author, in the sense that she writes a lot more about women's view and their world, and generally doesn't make men all that sympathetic, much less reveal their inner workings. "

Speaking of Jane Austen, I've just gone and bought two more books inspired by her:
A Truth Universally Acknowledged: 33 Great Writers on Why We Read Jane Austen by Harold Bloom
Highly recommended by someone over at the Folio Society group, who says the essay by Eudora Welty on "The Radiance of Jane Austen" alone is worth the price of the book. I got a great deal on Abe Books for a used copy, but there are hardcover new editions to be had at around $10 (including shipping) on Amazon too.
The second book is Selected Letters, 1796-1817 from the OUP.

Unbelievable to think I might actually become a *gasp*! austenite. Eeeeek!!!

lyzard: "I think my work here is done..."

jnwelch: "It's more unusual for guys to like reading Jane Austen than I would have guessed, I know, Ilana. The books are so witty and insightful, and well-written, you'd think it would be more common. Plus guys can identify (wishfully, maybe?) with a Darcy or a Mr. Knightley or Edward Ferrars and so on, laugh at the doofuses like Rev. Collins, and boo the cads and villains like Wickham. Plus they can appreciate the attractiveness of Lizzie Bennet and Anne Elliot and so on.

I will say a guy who likes to read her is likely to be a kindred spirit for me. One of my co-workers is a crusty guy much older than me who reads a lot and is a big Austen fan. He's become a good friend. One of my BILs is the same way (he's an English professor), and we get along well."

Smiler69: "Joe, thanks for sharing your insights about what led you to become a JA fan. Seems like you have at least one more male kindred spirit on LT than you knew of, because the person who suggested A Truth Universally Acknowledged, which I mentioned just a bit higher is groeng, and as I understand it he seems to be quite fond of Austen's work. I got the recommendation from this LT thread, where there was quite a lot of talk about Jane Austen which several guys contributed to, if you're interested. "

jnwelch: "My pleasure, Ilana. Thanks for the tips on other male JA fans; I'll take a look.

I thought some more about it, and part of it may be the perception that JA books are about "relationships". You know, the old canard is that when you suggest a movie to a guy, his question is "are there any fights or explosions?" Of course, that generality is a bunch of bunk, but there are guys who think that way. (I do enjoy fights and explosions, but so does my MBH, and neither of us is limited to them). Anyway, I wonder whether the "relationships" perception is part of it.

I like your idea of posting these on the P & P thread. Maybe we'd get some more reactions.

ETA: Very interesting discussion of JA on the linked thread! Perhaps the perception of her books being about a "narrow, aristocratic world" contributes to the dislike or avoidance by some guys? Makes me think of Longbourn, which has so much of what JA doesn't include in P & P."

Smiler69: "Joe, I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to the FSD thread. I thought you might do. It does seem like Longbourn is the answer to all those who complain about P&P centering too much on the parlours of upper class women and ignoring world events."

297lyzard
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 6, 2014, 8:33 pm

"Jane Austen didn't write about the Napoleonic Wars" has got to be about the single silliest criticism of a novelist ever made.

No, she didn't; neither did any other of the novelists working at that period; NOBODY DID.

In fact, by introducing so many naval officers as characters in Persuasion and saying so much about the early naval battles of the Napoleonic Wars, she was breaking new ground and saying much more than most, if not all, of her contemporaries.

Even when Frederick Marryat started writing his famous naval stories, which did include war stories, it was twenty years later and they were based upon his personal experiences; and in any event, most of them are predominantly domestic, not shipboard. What was a middle-class woman living in a country parsonage supposed to say?

Most of the 19th century novels addressing the Napoleonic Wars or indeed any conflict do so from a perspective of years afterwards, once there had been time for a full picture of events to emerge. The use of the novel to address current events is a 20th century phenomenon emerging on the back of a growing multimedia able to transmit meaningful (if not always accurate) information rapidly and widely.

I wonder what percentage of American novels published during the conflict in the Middle East so much as mention that was going on, let alone address it to any significant degree? Should we criticise all the authors who didn't for not bringing it into their story, no matter how pointlessly?

298souloftherose
helmikuu 8, 2014, 5:27 am

Belatedly delurking to say thank you to Ilana and Liz for this tutored read and to everyone else who commented or asked questions. Even though I've reread this book several times (and I'm afraid I have no idea how many times) I feel like I got a lot out of the discussions - the discussion about the disparity in education between Mr Gardner and his sisters for example, was something I'd never thought about before.

#286 "{Opens mouth to begin argument about S&S. Realises it's the wrong time / place and closes it.}" :-D Very much looking forward to the S&S read! And then Mansfield Park at some point?

Liz, if it would help, I'm happy to push Love Letters Between a Nobleman and His Sister back to mid-April (or to whenever the S&S read finishes) so you don't get overwhelmed.

#296 Thanks for posting that conversation here, Ilana. A Truth Universally Acknowledged has gone on my wishlist - I love books about Jane Austen almost as much as I love her books!

I think the perception that Jane Austen's books are about relationships, and specifically romantic relationships, may well be why there seem to be fewer male fans. Modern editions of the books often seem to be marketed as romances/chick lit which probably doesn't help.

#297 Very interesting post, Liz. I'd not properly appreciated how comparatively recent the phenomenom of using a novel to address current events was. When I first read a lot of 19th century novels I paid no attention to the date they were published or the date in which they were set and so completely missed the fact that many (if not most) are set at least 20-30 years before they were published.

299Caramellunacy
helmikuu 8, 2014, 8:46 am

Inspired by the re-read here, I just read through the Marvel Graphic Novel adaptation:



(which certainly underscores the girl/chicklit approach), but so pretty!

And this is my latest version of the actual text version which I just love! The artist has done similar covers for Jane Eyre, Wuthering Heights and Sense and Sensibility that I know of...

300southernbooklady
helmikuu 8, 2014, 8:49 am

>297 lyzard: I wonder what percentage of American novels published during the conflict in the Middle East so much as mention that was going on, let alone address it to any significant degree?

If you include the suspense genres, I'd say a fair amount. But of course Jane Austen didn't write "suspense."

You might also ask how many American writers included 9/11 in their novels. And how many of them did it justice when they did.

The problem with addressing current events in fiction is that you risk sacrificing the universal for the topical. I have no doubt that there were people who wrote "Napoleonic War fiction" at the time, but such books end up forgotten because they become irrelevant once the war is over.

And the job of the novelist is not to record history, after all. It is to tell a story.

301jnwelch
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 8, 2014, 1:38 pm

>297 lyzard: Well said about the Napoleonic Wars, Liz. I never missed them in JA's books, and you do get tangential mentions, as you say.

>299 Caramellunacy: I enjoyed that Marvel GN of Pride and Prejudice, too, Lana. The JA ones they did after that weren't as good, in my opinion, but that one worked well.

ETA: To me, Heather's on target about JA's books, especially P & P, being marketed now as about romantic relationships, and men aren't really targeted, are they? That makes me wonder how one would target men in marketing JA books. Maybe just as top quality literature, as this issue doesn't really come up regarding novels written by other women, does it? I don't have a perception that fewer men than usual read George Eliot or the Brontes, for example.

302lyzard
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 9, 2014, 4:46 pm

>>#298

Hi, Heather! Thank you for joining us.

I think I'll stop trying to nail down dates for these reads: Love-Letters can happen whenever Sense And Sensibility finishes. :)

I find there's a bit of a tendency to look as all "old books" as historical fiction, rather than drawing a distinction between those describing their contemporary society and those looking back. Even there you find two distinct schools, the Walter Scott "long-term history" approach and the "recent perspective" approach of looking back 20 or 30 years which, as you say, was very popular across the 19th century. Most of the novels that do that seem to be assessing the aftereffects of the Reform Bill of 1832, which was obviously considered a watershed.

>>#299

Thank you for posting those!

>>#300

And there's no reason why they should. But you don't hear critics saying, "This cosy mystery set in a teashop would have been much stronger if it had stopped to contemplate the origins of the conflict in the Middle East", do you? :)

And honestly, I don't think people were writing about the Napoleonic Wars at the time. I don't know if they didn't think that's what novels were "for", or whether it was considered inappropriate to discuss an ongoing conflict, or whether with so many people having relatives involved (Jane Austen had brothers and cousins in the army and navy) it was too close to home, but from what I've read around that time there was rarely anything more than an occasional young man in regimentals.

>>#301

It seems a bit sad to me that someone who has been acknowledged as one of the great writers for 200 years has to be "targeted" at all.

I think Austen suffers from the constant adaptations of her work, which are more and more frequently romanticised up (the films, rather than the series).

303Smiler69
helmikuu 9, 2014, 6:32 pm

Speaking of series, I just finished watching the BBC series this week. It really seemed dated at first (after all, it is 34 years old!), but it grew on me. Next up I'll start watching the Collin Firth one.

I took me a while month to get through P&P. I have no idea how long S&S will take me, but I doubt I'll need more time than that since I was quite taking my time about it, except for the very last part, reading 5 chapters in one sitting...

304lyzard
helmikuu 9, 2014, 7:09 pm

I'll be interested in how they compare for you. The later one is a lot more expensive and glossy, though I don't know how appropriate that actually is. (I feel the same way about the two versions of Bleak House: the earlier one looks like it was shot by candlelight!)

The only "time" that's important in these tutored reads is that you take as much as you need. :)

305Smiler69
Muokkaaja: helmikuu 14, 2014, 10:42 pm

Liz, I know I posted this image n your thread earlier, and I've been meaning to come back and comment on the P&P Colin Firth adaptation (which I'll do another time). I keep going from one thread to another tonight to spread the love and saying to myself 'This one, and then I sign off... Ok...This one, and then I sign off... etc), but I wanted to post my little Valentine here too, because most unexpectedly, P&P helped make what was a very difficult week more than tolerable:

306madhavadantuluri
helmikuu 15, 2014, 2:39 am

Thats the best one...

307luvamystery65
tammikuu 28, 2015, 2:47 pm

Liz I should apologize for stalking you but I am also participating in a year long Jane Austen read over in the 2015 Category Challenge. Your tutoring was invaluable to me with the Gothic novels. I will continue to read those and follow your threads.

For now our first selection is Pride and Prejudice. I've read it before but it has been many years. I look forward to following this thread.

308lyzard
Muokkaaja: tammikuu 28, 2015, 4:27 pm

You again! :D

You're very welcome, Roberta - I hope this thread is helpful.

ETA: We will be doing a tutored read of Mansfield Park in March - you would be very welcome to join in, if you were interested, as would any of the other participants in your group read; feel free to mention it.

309Nickelini
Muokkaaja: syyskuu 14, 2015, 1:25 pm

For those interested in the annotated edition by Harvard U Press, here is an interesting 3 minute video: https://vimeo.com/16940509

310Diane-bpcb
joulukuu 9, 2015, 1:25 am

I love that cover, too! What a scream!! Smoking a kind of cigarette way before its time And is that a military or toreador ruffle to his jacket? Thanks for posting. My day is made.