What will be lost with the closing of bookstores, and can LT replace it?

I keep seeing Tim lamenting bookstore closures. I'm less interested in mourning the loss of the status quo than in looking forward to how bookish people can continue to have happy bookish lives without so many physical stores. What exactly is it that we need bookstores for, and can we find substitutes for those things online? Is there anything LT in particular can do to make the future of books brighter?

Various thoughts:

a) Buying books. This is the main premise of the bookstore, and not really something that's needed anymore, so I don't find the loss of bookstores at all surprising. Amazon and other online booksellers have much better selections and options for rapid shipping. I generally don't mind waiting a couple of days for books, and there's always the ebook option for whatever we need to read immediately.

b) Finding books to read. I generally do better at this online already, though there's room for improvement. LT specifically could do more to highlight new books of interest and just generally provide more options for browsing. Already, though, I think it's almost at the stage where I could do without bookstores for finding books. Other people's reading threads are a great resource, and I often find things of interest on Amazon, and most physical stores are of limited use for academic books anyway.

c) Meeting bookish people. I admit that I've never personally used bookstores this way; I've met far more people in real life through LT than I ever did by starting up a random conversation in a bookstore.

d) Generally enjoying wandering around in a place full of books. This will probably be the greatest loss, but I guess I'll just have to spend more time in libraries, if they manage to survive.

What else will be lost, and what else can be done to replace it?

Well, one thing bookstores do is give you the opportunity to meet the authors, when they hold book signings or discussions.

One thing book stores help you do (and libraries, also), is to determine what books you don't want to read. If you have a list of 50 books you'd like to read in the net four months, but realize you only have time to read 25, you can look at all these books, read a few pages, and then make your decision for the best 25.

What I will miss most as bookstores fall by the wayside is serendipity. Browsing shelves on the way to a specific genre or subject often reveals a jewel that I would never find by searching online by subject, author or other targeted keywords. Both libraries and bookstores offer this type of discovery and the world will be diminished if we don't find online equivalents to expose us to new ideas and intriguing topics. As someone who lives in the northwoods of Minnesota, more than 50 miles from the nearest (small) bookstore, one of my greatest pleasures is visiting one of the big bookstores when I am in a city. E-books are practical, light-weight and convenient for popular reading but I still treasure "real" books for something that I want to refer to or share with others.

>1b
Yes, but... I wouldn't want LibraryThing to start bombarding me with invitations to read the latest teenage vampire novel every time I log in.

>3 vpfluke:
Yes, that's very true: the internet is great for helping you to discover the existence of obscure books about subject X you wouldn't otherwise have known about, but it's less good at helping you decide whether those books address the subject in a way that's interesting for you. LibraryThing helps for relatively well-known works, but for obscure special-interest books there are never likely to be enough informative reviews here to let you make an informed decision. Seeing the book yourself, or talking to a bookseller who knows your tastes, is much more effective.

Hummm.... interesting. I just have a couple of comments to add to the discussion.

1) serendipity - I agree with gailw, roaming the stacks in a physical bookstore has always provided me with unexpected treasures that searching on-line never brings to my attention. When I am looking for new books, I don't always have author/title or even specific genre in mind. I browse for whatever catches my attention. With bookstores, there are the added visual cues - an 800 page doorstop of a book parked on the shelf beside a slender 68 page novella - that keep the browsing interesting. For me, surfing on-line for books quickly develops into pages of 'sameness' and becomes more of a tedious chore than a pleasure.

2) finding books to read - While I love the LT community and the wealth of books that LT has brought to my attention, I discover that a number of the books I read are not brought to my attention by LT or other online sources - I find them by roaming bookshelves in bookstores and libraries.

Here is a question: What about used bookstores? While I can see bookstores that specialize in new books facing steep on-line competition, I see used bookstores still holding onto their local niche markets against the on-line vendors so long as there continues to exist a market for used books in the community. Some of the bookstores in my area sell both used and new books, and appear to be thriving, even in this on-line, ebook world.

I think serendipity and its allies are the holy grail. Algorithms that pick your reading tend to feel mechanical and lock you into a "filter bubble." They're also not relaxing the way browsing through a bookstore is. Software in general is generally not "relaxing" in that way--you're always asked to do something, to attend, to notice. Browsing in a bookstore doesn't feel that way.

So, I think there's more to online browsing than just algorithms that pick your reading. There's a reason that the 75 Book Challenge is the most active group on LT, for one: people like to see what others are reading; it's a fun experience that incidentally leads to suggestions for new books to try. Likewise, I imagine that Lists will be fun to browse, and will be interesting in their own right while also providing suggestions for what to read. The same goes for zeitgeist statistics about what people are reading, or better CK filtering to show things like the top-rated books published in 2010. Even just expanding the existing zeitgeist lists would be a start.

Basically, I don't think the goal should be only to suggest books to individuals. The goal should be to create interesting book features that people want to look at. They'll incidentally discover new books to read, creating that feeling of serendipity.

>7 timspalding: algorithms

And who wants their future reading to be defined by their past reading? That's boring.

The goal should be to create interesting book features that people want to look at

Damn it, Zoe, we agree 100%.

>10 timspalding: Isn't it nice when that happens? :D

> 8

people like to see what others are reading; it's a fun experience that incidentally leads to suggestions for new books to try.

That's true, but being curious about what other people are reading is a very different thing from browsing in a bookstore. And lists, be they what people are reading or top-rated books, bear no resemblance to it at all. A list of titles is a far cry from having your eye caught by a curious title or interesting cover and being able to pick up the book and glance through it.

Each has its place, but I've never found an on-line experience that even came close to hanging out in a bricks-and-mortar bookstore.

And lists, be they what people are reading or top-rated books, bear no resemblance to it at all

They bear some resemblance. I like it when a bookstore makes a "list" (eg., a display), and even sometimes when the list emerges without editorial control (eg., a bestseller display).

>12 lilithcat: Lists could certainly include cover pictures (and I would argue that they should). Amazon has various features for looking inside the book or reading the first chapter. And I've also found that other online tools (reviews, ratings) reduce my need to glance through the book.

I guess my question here, though, was not whether online sources can absolutely duplicate the bookstore experience, but what they can do to get as close as possible.

One word: haptics.

Oh, and a bonus word for some people: olfactics

(though, disappointingly, that doesn't actually mean what I want it to and I don't think there actually is one yet)

Apples and oranges. LT can't replace even online bookstores (unless it became one), and nothing can replace real bookstores--not to me at least. For similar many complex reasons that even a complete virtual stock of my books could never replace my physical library, or a virtual tour of the Louvre a real one, or a compact pill a six-course dinner etc. Seeing a picture of the elephant isn't the same as seeing the elephant. Generally, I prefer complex experiences in real life to online sterility in the monotony of my room.

16> Apples and oranges. LT can't replace even online bookstores (unless it became one), and nothing can replace real bookstores--not to me at least.

Of course, there's one big problem with that. Nothing could replace these great beef ribs I got at this one bbq place. But then not enough people were as crazy about them as I was, so they went out of business. Now there's no place I can get really good beef ribs around here.

My point really is just that it isn't always that thing A is competing against thing B for everyone who likes thing B. There's so many subgroups and if enough of them abandon thing B for thing A, it's quite possible thing A simply won't be able to exist anymore.

#17

But that's not relevant to what's being asked. Yeah, so I'll be in pain. One day when every last bookstore is gone. However, as I'm not sentenced to live my life out in the wasteland of North America, I feel optimistic that won't happen within my lifetime.

Forgot to add: I ignore every last challenge group, that's how boring I find them.

So given that nearly everyone on this thread likes the idea of bookstores, and enjoys the experience of brousing in bookstores, but nobody seems to actually want to spend money in bookstorees, has anyone got any ideas about how to keep them viable. Would you pay an entrance fee to brouse?

>19 reading_fox:: Actually, yes, I'd pay an entrance fee to a bookstore, or to a clothing boutique, art gallery ... money well spent for the enjoyment gained.

>19 reading_fox: I was thinking about that after reading about a closing bookstore in Toronto: It quickly became a neighbourhood favourite, with its weekly story-telling hours and visits from children's’ authors like Roch Carrier. They expanded into adult books and transformed the basement into a cosy salon, where young and old literati took in readings under vine-covered rafters. If people enjoyed it for the regular readings and the atmosphere, I wonder whether they could have had a monthly or yearly membership fee. It's a pretty wealthy neighbourhood where I suspect many people wouldn't have thought twice about paying.

> 19

nobody seems to actually want to spend money in bookstorees

Sez who? I spend a lot of money in bookstoers. More than I should!

> 21

I wonder whether they could have had a monthly or yearly membership fee

A good many indie bookstores have membership fees. These generally entitle the member to discounts on purchases, perhaps advance notice/priority entrance at author events, etc.

Right, I was thinking more of a membership just to enter the basement salon and attend events at all, not one tied to discounts. Also, it would be more expensive than the typical discount-centred membership (which generally about $25/year, in my experience); I was thinking of at least $25/month.

> 24

I don't think you'd want to have a fee to attend events at all, because part of the point of having events in the first place is to draw people to the store.

That said, I do know that when a major author appears, some stores require that you purchase the book to get a ticket to the event.

I was thinking of at least $25/month.

That's $300 per year! Just to attend events? I don't know anyone who'd pay that. They'd have to have events every night of the week, with wine and cheese. And include a free copy of the book.

>25 lilithcat: The point is that "stores" have to look beyond selling books as a way to make money. People on the whole no longer need to stores as a place to buy books, and if they want them for the experience alone, then they have to be willing to pay for that. Needless to say, $25/month would not remotely cover the cost of a free book every night accompanied by wine and cheese.

I read all your comments & now here is mine.... I went to book store at least once a week. I now have a Kindle so I have not gone back. I really don't miss it.

I understand about finding a 'gem' on the way to whatever book you were after. I've noticed that both B&N & Ammy have books selected, but they do have them mixed up as well. I would consider that a 'gem' on the way to whatever you were after.

For me, the biggest problem with the Nook or Kindle, is the large number of books not available in a an e-fomat. I have a Nook, as well as a Kindle app on our i-pad. There are still books being published that are unavailable as an e-book. And for some Kindle & Nook books, the savings are only a $1 off the paparback price. For books that are 4-5 years old, the ebook is sometimes more expensive than the paper copy.

When my career took a turn and I went from working in a bookstore to working from home, the one thing I really missed was the simple pleasure of talking to people about what they were reading. I have filled this gap somewhat with online communities like LT, but the truth is they are a pale substitute. Not just because they lack the visual and emotional cues of things like body language, tone of voice, and what not. But because you are allowed to script and control your online experience in ways that you can't in the real world. Reality sort of forces you to interact with it, whereas online you can always "opt out."

Reality, thus is much more frustrating, when it is frustrating, but much more rewarding, when it is rewarding. I'm actually typing this from a hotel in Florida where the Southern Independent Booksellers Alliance is winding down its annual fall trade show. I've spent the last four days doing nothing but talking to people about what they are reading, talking to writers about what they have written, talking to publishers about what's coming up. And plenty of it is stuff I won't read, wouldn't be interested in, but let me tell you, the enthusiasm is infectious. I am never infected by enthusiasm from an online posters multiple exclamation marks and all caps sentences.

And there are a number of books I will pick up, because the writer's story interested me enough to read the book it compelled them to write.

But it is all a kind of serendipity. I couldn't help that I was stuck on an elevator with someone who had written a Christian-oriented book about reducing stress by finding God. But as it turned out, he was an interesting guy, so I didn't mind. I'd say this atheist's ability to interact with evangelical Christians has become a little more nuanced.

In the end, I'd say that websites are a great place to find stuff, but not a good place to give that stuff real meaning in your life.

Like said before, one of the advantages of the physical bookstores are the trade shows and the opportunities to meet the author in person. This feature is now moving online with the increasing number of online communities, where readers, authors and publishers can interact with each others (like LT for example). And one of the advantages of this trend for the authors is that they get feedback and reviews of their works much faster.

NYT: To Stay Afloat, Bookstores Turn to Web Donors
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/12/business/bookstores-turn-to-web-donors-to-stal...

IMHO, the basic problem is that bookstores create more value than they monetize. Paying for events, memberships, t-shirts that signal your allegiance, etc. are all part of the effort to close that gap. Crowdfunding is too. In the end, however, you have a mismatch between what many want (bookstores to live) and what's in individual interests (buying the book there, not taking a photo of it and buying it online). Society generally solves that "free rider" problem by making things mandatory. It can't do that here. Still, it would be nice if government did not go the other direction and actively destroy local businesses by allowing Amazon to avoid paying sales taxes.

>31 timspalding: the basic problem is that bookstores create more value than they monetize. Paying for events, memberships, t-shirts that signal your allegiance, etc. are all part of the effort to close that gap.

The last convention I attended the talk was all about the bookstore as "an experience" and the art of creating a sense of discovery and adventure.

Which is great for the customer walking in the door, but is somewhat less effective for the potential customer who never actually visits.

>33 IanCCat: are funded partly through publicity and advertising

You mean like you just did? How would you know anything about LT? You just signed up for it and your profile is one big advertisement for your company.

Yep. Full of affiliate links. Flagging.

The profile may offend, but the post itself seemed appropriate, whether or not I agree with the message. Hmmn.

The post was formulated so as to be appropriate, but I doubt the poster really gave a rat's ass other than about his site.