War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 3, Part II

Keskustelu75 Books Challenge for 2011

Liity LibraryThingin jäseneksi, niin voit kirjoittaa viestin.

War and Peace Group Read 2011 - Vol 3, Part II

Tämä viestiketju on "uinuva" —viimeisin viesti on vanhempi kuin 90 päivää. Ryhmä "virkoaa", kun lähetät vastauksen.

1Deern
Muokkaaja: maaliskuu 3, 2011, 2:43 am

New thread for Vol 3, Part II

Next thread: http://www.librarything.com/topic/111301

2Deern
Muokkaaja: maaliskuu 31, 2011, 8:50 am

First comments, 50 pages in:

I had some problems with this part (so far), it seems less fluent and I can't really relate to the events. For example I didn't really understand that part about the muzhiks in B. (forgot the name of the place, haven't the book with me today). Are they rebellious? What do they really want? Are there political motives? Or is it simply fear to be killed by the French? Has this always be a 'difficult' estate of the Bolkonskys or has it become like this after Andrei did the improvements and people were better educated (maybe had access to political pamphlets?) and had more time to think?

I am also not satisfied with the circumstances around Bolkonsky's death and the last words not said. It seems a bit pointless in the story, although it is certainly realistic.

Marya and Nikolai? Isn't this a typical 'damsel in distress' situation? Are men that simple? I heard it still works nowadays. I recently got the advice to act a bit like one (i.e. helpless) if I want to talk business to the men here in Italy. I haven't acted on this advice yet, but I am still waiting for my break-through, so maybe my friend was right.
Poor Sonya.

3Deern
Muokkaaja: maaliskuu 31, 2011, 9:13 am

I finally finished this part this morning. In the end I liked it better, but I had some problems with the continual switching of the focus and it looks like it will go on like this in part 3. I guess this is part of what makes the novel so special, but personally I find it tiresome. I read a 'philosophical' chapter, then the next chapter starts with Pierre's personal experiences, then I get a history chapter, then back to the individual character (maybe Andrei this time) and next it's philosophy again.

It is great, yes, but right now I am in a situation where I can't appreciate it as much as I should, where I'd rather read something less demanding and I hope it won't go on like this for the remaining almost 400 pages.

The Pierre part: in the end I understood what his function was. The non-military, civil observer who is confronted with the atrocities of war. He takes our (the reader's) position. However I wondered if it was really possible for a count to just go to watch war. "Oh please, don't mind me - I'm just taking a look at war, because they are talking so much about it in Moscow and I have never seen it, just sent some peasants, but that's not like really participating, you know? May I share your tent while I am here? Oh - am I standing in the way of this cannon? What do you mean my horse has been hit by a shell? Ah - so that's why she is limping!"... it didn't make sense to me.

Andrei: again injured, again half-dead, again hit in a deeply philisophical moment. Feeling love and forgiveness for Anatole, so what is he now feeling for Natasha? Can he forgive her? Will he survive?

I especially liked the close looks at Kutuzov and Napoleon, their characters and their motives.

4Deern
huhtikuu 1, 2011, 7:00 am

Sorry, but I just have to mention it because I found it so funny. Another national stereotype:
the German general (or what his title was) needs the retreat order in written form to be able to prove he is just following orders. I really had to laugh about it, it's just so true. I just never knew this was a nationality thing. No wonder a German invented the printing press and made the written word more easily available. So many work-related memories coming up all having to deal with the usual ' and make sure you get this in written form!'. My Italian business partners now merely ignore my constant wishes for written confirmations, they just call me in answer to my emails. I'm learning, but it's hard. And what can I do? It's in the genes, obviously. :-)

5Deern
huhtikuu 5, 2011, 9:18 am

slight spoiler for part 3 for those who are also having problems with part 2 and need some encouragement

No plot spoilers, but I'd say the style gets a little easier in the next part. Not as easy and fluent as it was back in volume 2, but we get some more character action which made me curious to see what will happen to them next and got me through the dry bits. And so far less philosophy, but there are 40 pages left for me and who knows what they'll contain...

6jordanmatthews
Muokkaaja: huhtikuu 8, 2011, 2:01 am

I felt the change in writing style too and was also slightly confused about the muzhiks in Bogucharovo. I think I understood it in the end though. I must admit I re-read a page or two there.

Aside from that I haven't really had problems with this part, I managed to read the last 70 pages or so in one go. I understood Borodino far better than i did Austerlitz for some reason.

Let's see if Bolkonsky forgives Natasha (or survives).

7JanetinLondon
toukokuu 2, 2011, 5:23 pm

I read this whole section in one day, because I found it “unputdownable”. Again, I found myself far more fascinated by the war/strategy discussions than the personal parts of the story. The personal is being swept away by the inevitability of history. That's why old Bolkonsky's death is so shortchanged, why the peasants in the village are so confusing (they are just not sure what to do, and think at first they should wait for the French), why the Rostov/Maria story gets short shrift. They would all have had more time to develop in the earlier, "peace" parts of the book.

I love how Tolstoy is so able and willing to shred the usual historical explanations of what happened at Borodino and elsewhere. He seems very knowledgeable, and knows well that history just happens, despite the best laid plans of leaders. I also like how he doesn't show battles/blood/death per se so much, but rather discusses them from above, sort of. I have to say, I learned a lot. I didn’t know ANYTHING beforehand – you will laugh, but I did not even know who won at Borodino, nothing except it was one of the most terrible battles in history. And he makes it so clear what happened (randomness) and why it turned out to be so important.

And yes, I think nobles like Pierre did just wander out to "have a look" - when I went to Waterloo a couple of years ago the whole thing was just like this, with places shown that ladies even came to in order to watch.

8Deern
toukokuu 3, 2011, 1:32 am

#7: I had a feeling that you would like those sections much more than I did and I am glad I was right. Now that I finished the book I am thinking differently about them and I am planning to reread the whole thing in the not too distant future.

When I was reading part III I didn't have much time, and those historical and philosophical bits are better read in bigger portions than my 10-15 daily pages. And I might chose a different edition next time. The P&V makes a point of not changing Tolstoy's constant repetitions of certain words and over-constructed sentences. I found that a bit tiresome.

Interesting point about 'watching war', I wasn't aware of that.

9JanetinLondon
toukokuu 3, 2011, 5:45 am

I agree, you need to read the "war strategy" bits in big chunks - I read each of parts 1 and 2 in one sitting - no idea how! These sections saved me from the worries I had that the book was really just a big soap opera - it's not, it's about the big sweep of history, and the place of little people in it. I love this sort of book.

10Rebeki
heinäkuu 9, 2011, 4:08 am

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed Tolstoy's analysis of the Battle of Borodino - Janet, I didn't know where Borodino was, let alone who was fighting in it or that it was part of the Napoleonic Wars!

I could understand Pierre wanting to witness the battle, but can't help thinking I'd have been deeply irritated with him if I were a serving soldier. I'm very interested to learn that this was quite normal.