Is the group image appropriate? Does symbolism matter?

I am the same person who commented on the flickr site for this image, so I shan't repeat myself here.

This is the last place where I thought I would see something like this.

And I believe I misquoted Cicero on flickr.

Why bother posting here if you don't want to bring the discussion over?

I have gone to the effort of reading your post on flickr (for anyone else interested, see here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/hiperactivo/3644097750/ )

I'm still not actually sure what the point is that you are trying to make (which could quite conceivably be as a result of my ignorance, not your post)? Perhaps you could elaborate further?

> 1

I took the image to be a direct reflection & adaptation of Hindu tradition: there are reasons for the dark-skinned Kalki and the light-skinned Vishnu, and they are not primarily or even essentially racial.

See here (the artist linked to this article elsewhere on the site):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

Would you have preferred a light-skinned figure stomping on a dark-skinned one?

> 4

Given your link, the choice of Kali as apparent victor seems very apt, given the context of the illustration.

I'm not Hindu, but using that great arbitor of all things religious, Wikipedia, I find that the black goddess Kali is often pictured standing on the body of her consort, "Shiva, whose body is covered by the white ashes of the cremation ground." I agree with TineOliver, it looks like a great representation of what some people think is the future of paper books vs e books.

I'm happy to change it—not so much in response to complaints as because my intention was to eventually set up a thread to find our own image. Of free, available images I thought this was the most interesting out there, was also funny—I didn't think of the racial interpretation, nor do I think it was in the mind of either the original artist or the parodist—and deftly avoided being a smiling person reading an ebook, a picture of a particular device or etc.

"I thought this was the most interesting out there, was also funny—I didn't think of the racial interpretation, nor do I think it was in the mind of either the original artist or the parodist—and deftly avoided being a smiling person reading an ebook, a picture of a particular device or etc.

"

Matches almost exactly my thoughts when I saw it - good choice of imagine I thought, bet that took a while to find.

I guess this also shows a potential problem with ebooks, the inherent sensibilies people have on other's behalf, and the possible restrictions that can get imposed just in case someone might be offended.

My first reaction above (>1 jasen:), was purely gut reaction. I was too strident. Also, I did not realise it was from Vishnu Purana's Kali. I respect the right of interpretation of all artists but I totally missed the mark because in my mind, Kali is totally black as in black, not dark shades of grey.

As for my thoughts about the group's image:

This discussion group is probably not the first to consider the issue of cultural changes in the context of emerging trends. Julius Evola also referred to the Kali Yuga in the 1930s, in the context of race and human development. This was during the rise of Nazism and his implied sympathies towards their cause is stil debated by some today.

Without doing a critique of his books, in particular Revolt Against The Modern World, we are also trying to use the imagery of Kali Yuga -- in our case -- in the context of the Digital Dark Age.

I believe symbolism, like words, do matter. It can divide us. I think educated individuals, which I equate with all who are part of this group and LibraryThing.com, are in general more aware. And we may want to reconsider the need for potraying dark-skinned individuals. It may be sub-conscious but subliminal messages -- especially ones that paints the skin-colour -- does not help. I simply ask: Should we not consider the feelings of people who look different, people with darker skin?

Finally, I apologise to the creator of this image/poster if my first message (>1 jasen:) was offensive. We can of course explore whether the latest trend in ebooks is a good thing for book readership, or reading in general. However, I believe we can still have a healthy discussion without offending others.

>5 jjwilson61:
No, I don't believe that is useful. And I'm not trying to provoke an argument about race.

>7 Citizenjoyce:,
I'm not Hindu either. However, transplanting images or symbols into a Western context can sometimes miss the mark. The reference to Nazism above was not coincidental, as the swastika in Asian cultures is totally opposite to that of the Western world -- e.g swastika cf. Wikipedia's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

I apologise again if my first message was too strident. Nevertheless, I think we can do better with imagery or symbols.

>9 reading_fox: I guess this also shows a potential problem with ebooks, the inherent sensibilies people have on other's behalf, and the possible restrictions that can get imposed just in case someone might be offended.

Remove the 'e' from in front of 'ebooks'. What has changed?

>11 justjim:,

I agree with you.

Using mobile handsets as analogy, the rise of Apple's iPhone and soon, Google's Android was unexpected.

For a long while, many telecommunication companies and telco watchers thought that all telcos will turn into ISPs because of the declining revenues from diminishing voice calls.

However, due to iPhone's tapworthy apps, there has been a resurgence in smartphones. All that downloading and game-playing on social networks has clearly reversed any losses from voice-based revenues. So, thanks to Apple and Google, the rest of the world sees a future in telcos again.

In similar vein, book publishers and distributors may change their channel of distribution to the online world if their ultimate product is a better experience -- perhaps from more interactive books. Flipboard for iPad is a case in point, for the future of magazine publishers.

A positive side effect: the cost of learning might be reduced.

So, I'm optimistic about the culture of reading. But maybe not so much physical books.
PS. Just make books more *social*, isn't that the latest new new thing?

I also take symbolism very seriously, and think the level of discussion in this thread is worthy of LT. It's an important question: the symbolism is rooted in a rich tradition, allowing for both serious and humourous interpretation of the image in context of this group. But we're all familiar with many instances of how mass media and public perception twist those messages into something else, whether nefarious or simply shallow. The ancient dilemma of demagoguery.

My vote would be to keep the image for now, and start that thread about finding a new image. I'll leave that to Tim, as it appears he's been thinking about it.

#11 "Remove the 'e' from in front of 'ebooks'. What has changed"

I thihnk electronic media are far more liable to influence and editing than paper based versions. Once it's printed its there for good, even if access can be restricted. But electronic versions could all be removed in one foul sweep if a sufficient mob was invoked.

Although I suppose the reverse is also true - an electronic copy will always linger somewhere on an isolated server, wheras all the paper versions might eventually be lost.

I'm totally fine with the group image.

#12: For a long while, many telecommunication companies and telco watchers thought that all telcos will turn into ISPs because of the declining revenues from diminishing voice calls.

This has happened. Voice is just another service now, and travels over the same network as other data - increasingly using IP as a transport. Fixed line revenues have plummeted off a cliff. Mobile is still a growth area, but new mobile services almost always include some data capability.

In similar vein, book publishers and distributors may change their channel of distribution to the online world if their ultimate product is a better experience -- perhaps from more interactive books. Flipboard for iPad is a case in point, for the future of magazine publishers.

I think interactive books are (sometimes) wonderful, but I don't think they'll ever be more than a niche. Interactivity around books will increase, and some formats will be affected more than others - Flipboard is a good example, as is the iPad edition of Wired.

I too am optimistic about the future of reading. I think physical books will become more of an artifact to be treasured, and less a means of transporting content. This will probably result in physical books becoming more expensive, more beautiful, and much less common.

#14: I thihnk electronic media are far more liable to influence and editing than paper based versions. Once it's printed its there for good, even if access can be restricted. But electronic versions could all be removed in one foul sweep if a sufficient mob was invoked.

Although I suppose the reverse is also true - an electronic copy will always linger somewhere on an isolated server, wheras all the paper versions might eventually be lost.

I agree with both sides of that argument! Electronic books win easily in the medium term, however. Verifying the authenticity of an electronic copy is a solved problem in the tech world (see Digital signature on wikipedia, for example), and once you have the infrastructure in place it's much easier to do this with digital copies than with physical media.

While digital copies are in some senses very fragile, they have the advantage of being trivially easy to reproduce at virtually no cost, and require vanishingly small amounts of physical space for storage.

So, as long as we can manage not to enter a new dark age, digital copies give us the best hope of longevity - as long as we distribute and store them in such a way as to guarantee their integrity and safety against mob rule.

If for some reason we fail to maintain a technological society then all bets are off. Unless there is a corresponding hard copy archive, then we could lose not only the content itself but also any record of it having ever existed.

I think physical books will become more of an artifact to be treasured, and less a means of transporting content. This will probably result in physical books becoming more expensive, more beautiful, and much less common

I'm already there - I very rarely buy books to read on a daily basis (i.e. to and from work everyday, which is when I get most of my reading done). The books I select to purchase for my library are purchased for asthetics and cultural/literary or personal significance. Anything else I read I do so electronically.

>15 felius:

Yeah, I don't really understand the argument about digital media vanishing. Yes, floppy disks break down after X years, but exponentially increasing storage and speed, combined with trivial copying over a global network makes it more likely that, in 2110, every lollipop will carry a complete copy of every book ever written, than that digital books will have vanished somehow.

I had to go back and look more closely at the image after reading this thread, as at first glance I took it for a stylized tarot card. I rather like the picture and find it apt. If I can recall correctly, isn't Kali about the destruction of the old so the new may flourish? Though, I certainly don't want to see ebooks completely supplant the real thing. It's extremely unlikely that I will ever own a kindle or a nook, but I think they have their place.

what are you talking about.

I don't know. What are *you* talking about?

I'm pretty sure varielle is talking about the (current) group image. Check out the main page for this group.

Just responding to the original topic.

Please keep the witty and provocative image where it is. It belongs there.

…every lollipop will carry a complete copy of every book ever written…

You've read The Futurological Congress then?

digital media vanishes everyday. from platforms no longer being used to the glut of information rendering the desired information impossible to find. the data is only now starting to be archived with any methodology. finding the book you want to read when all data looks the same and is stored in orders of magnitude to large to comprehend can be quite difficult. this is what is being argued. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DE1638F933A15750C0A96695826...

24> A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer came to mind.